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BSL: Ngata a fit for contract extension


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#1 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 04:41 PM

http://baltimorespor...-fit-extension/

 

What is Ngata worth with his decline in pass rushing skills, and a possible extension that could lower his $16M cap number, highest on the team.


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#2 BSLGabeFerguson

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:50 PM

I have no interest in extending Ngata. If I remember correctly, he has talked before about retirement and while he is a very good player, he's also dealt with injuries pretty consistently. Throwing more money at a bad contract is not the way to fix the situation.


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#3 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 06:42 PM

I have no interest in extending Ngata. If I remember correctly, he has talked before about retirement and while he is a very good player, he's also dealt with injuries pretty consistently. Throwing more money at a bad contract is not the way to fix the situation.


I get the variables. Retirement, injuries etc... But I mentioned in there it's just an exercise assuming he's happy to keep playing and the Ravens have no plans to move him.

I look at it this way.

1. He costs the salary cap $16M this year and $16M the next for $32M.
2. He cost $16M this year and $7.5M (dead money) next year if cut or traded for $23.5M
3. Under my proposal, he costs $12.6M this year and $12.9M next for $25.5M

It's worth the extra $2M to employ him then to not. He's on the books for at least two years no matter what. Why not take on two more at a price more reasonable and team friendly then what he's currently making, while clearing current cap space in the process? Consider it a one year extension instead of two where if it backfires, the fourth year of the deal only cost $4.25M in dead money and $8M cap savings, which isn't horrible. It's similar to the Suggs situation.
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#4 Cisc-O's

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 06:44 PM

If he retires during his contract we are not liable. I think an extension would not be a bad idea.

I am pretty sure Shack is thinking of PBR.


#5 BSLRobShields

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 06:51 PM

I would rather cut him after June 1 and spread out the cap hit than extend him.
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#6 jasterps

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 07:27 PM

No interest in extending what has become a turd player, IMO.



#7 Mackus

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 07:44 PM

If he retires during his contract we are not liable. I think an extension would not be a bad idea.


Yes, we are. Ray Lewis and Matt Birk counted for a couple million against this year's cap. Retirement doesn't eliminate prorated bonus money that still needs to be counted. It does eliminate base salary though, just like a trade or cut.

#8 jkough1

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:35 AM

Ngata was a bigger factor than people are giving him credit for.  He's a presence inside, and despite some injuries he took the most snaps on the DL of all our players.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to cutting him and spreading his hit, but for the moment, I think we can use him more next year than we can get by cutting him.  Now if we go DT in the draft and it's a NFL ready type guy, that might end up making a difference.  But even if we wait until after June 1 to cut the guy, are we really freeing up that much money to do anything with it?  Perhaps the Pitta extension will need post June 1 space, but in theory Monroe will already be done by then.

 

If we have a compelling need to cut, by all means.  If not, he still gives us performance, just not worth his cap space.  I'd rather have Ngata than run through another Spears/Huff type signings in exchange.



#9 Mackus

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:05 AM

I don't think that a $3.4M reduction in his 2014 cap number and a $3.1M reduction in his 2015 cap number are worth adding significant cap obligations in 2016 and 2017.  You're saving $6.5M over the next two years so that you can pay $8.5M over two years down the road if you cut him.  Maybe if the cap keeps increasing you could argue that it's just delaying the payment rather than financing it, but I don't think the positives of this deal match the negatives.

 

The only way I'd consider extending Haloti is with a paycut.  I don't think he's worth more than Suggs at this point, and Suggs just signed for under $6M AAV.  I'd consider a 4/$24M deal with ~$12M guaranteed for Haloti.  That roughly guarantees his current 2014 salary and half his current 2015 salary, which I think is a fair offer.  Something like bases of $1M, $3M, $3.5M, and $4.5M with a $12M bonus.  Makes the cap hits $11.5M, $13.5M, $6.5M, and $7.5M.  Save $7M over the next two years and then pay $6M to cut him after 2015.


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#10 jkough1

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:22 AM

Honestly, I see Ngata as a guy who stays here for this year, helps potentially transition in the "new guard" of Tyson and Williams, we draft a couple more DL in the draft and then he's gone next year.  No need to restructure anything.

 

Now that we've freed up $4 mill from the Suggs deal, right now they have $16 million in space going into next year.  Not to mentions that means keeping Leach, McClain and Koch too.  Which would free up another what, $5 mill? 

 

That's more than enough money to lock up Monroe, tag or sign Pitta and go get depth at the FS position.  I'm hoping Griffin gets cut and we chase him, but Delmas is another target that probably won't cost an arm and a leg.  We could probably make a small splash at the C position as well.

 

Hell, if we really wanted and the plan was to carry Ngata this year and cut him next year, put Jones on a deal that let him replace Ngata and cut him at year's end.

 

I'd be shocked if Ngata was cut this year given our current situation.



#11 Mackus

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:36 AM

I agree that it's very unlikely Ngata is cut this year.  Only possible way I can see it happening is if we spend right up to the cap in free agency, and then need the space to sign our draft picks.  In that case, we could make him a June 1st cut and split the $15M in dead money over the next two years.  I don't think the Ravens have ever operated that way, so I think it's highly unlikely.

 

Btw, we save $1.6M if we cut Koch, $1.75M if we cut Leach, and $3.2M if we cut McClain, $6.55M total.  We should certainly be cutting Koch and Leach, I've got little doubt about that.  McClain certainly won't be back at his $3.2M salary.  Last year he agreed to a paycut from $3M to $1.5M.  I could see the team bringing him back if he agrees again to something similar.  Maybe drop his salary to $1.75M or so, which would save about $1.45M.  Probably depends on whether they resign Daryl Smith or not if they'd even want him back at a reduced price. 



#12 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:59 AM

I don't think that a $3.4M reduction in his 2014 cap number and a $3.1M reduction in his 2015 cap number are worth adding significant cap obligations in 2016 and 2017.  You're saving $6.5M over the next two years so that you can pay $8.5M over two years down the road if you cut him.  Maybe if the cap keeps increasing you could argue that it's just delaying the payment rather than financing it, but I don't think the positives of this deal match the negatives.
 
The only way I'd consider extending Haloti is with a paycut.  I don't think he's worth more than Suggs at this point, and Suggs just signed for under $6M AAV.  I'd consider a 4/$24M deal with ~$12M guaranteed for Haloti.  That roughly guarantees his current 2014 salary and half his current 2015 salary, which I think is a fair offer.  Something like bases of $1M, $3M, $3.5M, and $4.5M with a $12M bonus.  Makes the cap hits $11.5M, $13.5M, $6.5M, and $7.5M.  Save $7M over the next two years and then pay $6M to cut him after 2015.


Certainly a more team friendly deal then what I proposed. I was simply going off of the likelihood of him not taking a pay cut, and getting a $17M bonus up front. I wasnt sure if a 4/$24M deal with almost 75% of the deal being guaranteed made sense.
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#13 Mackus

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:01 AM

Certainly a more team friendly deal then what I proposed. I was simply going off of the likelihood of him not taking a pay cut, and getting a $17M bonus up front. I wasnt sure if a 4/$24M deal with almost 75% of the deal being guaranteed made sense.

 

I think you approached your article in a very reasonable way.  Haloti certainly would be far more likely to accept an extension if it didn't feel like a paycut.  I just don't think he's a type of guy that you can extend right now unless you're getting reduced salary.  He's been oft-injured (perhaps not missing games, but losing effectiveness) throughout much of his prime.  I don't expect him to age particularly well.


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#14 BSLGabeFerguson

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:24 PM

I don't think that a $3.4M reduction in his 2014 cap number and a $3.1M reduction in his 2015 cap number are worth adding significant cap obligations in 2016 and 2017. You're saving $6.5M over the next two years so that you can pay $8.5M over two years down the road if you cut him. Maybe if the cap keeps increasing you could argue that it's just delaying the payment rather than financing it, but I don't think the positives of this deal match the negatives.

The only way I'd consider extending Haloti is with a paycut. I don't think he's worth more than Suggs at this point, and Suggs just signed for under $6M AAV. I'd consider a 4/$24M deal with ~$12M guaranteed for Haloti. That roughly guarantees his current 2014 salary and half his current 2015 salary, which I think is a fair offer. Something like bases of $1M, $3M, $3.5M, and $4.5M with a $12M bonus. Makes the cap hits $11.5M, $13.5M, $6.5M, and $7.5M. Save $7M over the next two years and then pay $6M to cut him after 2015.


I could see that as a viable way to extend Haloti and I agree with your reasoning. I'm on board with letting him play out this season at the current rate and then cutting ties. He just isn't living up to the contract, and unless he is willing to take a significant pay cut like you proposed I don't see a future for him in Baltimore.
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#15 jkough1

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:40 PM

Again, just to say this, if we just cut Ngata outright this year, we'd miss him a heck of a lot more than people think we would.  He does a lot of little things well.  And he might not be the dominant interior NT that we want that can create pressure, but he lets us do way more for our defense than you might think.  

 

His constant double teaming might not be sexy, but it's real and it makes a difference.  Didn't he miss significant time during the stretch where the Ravens were shredded on the ground this year?



#16 BSLGabeFerguson

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:46 PM

Again, just to say this, if we just cut Ngata outright this year, we'd miss him a heck of a lot more than people think we would. He does a lot of little things well. And he might not be the dominant interior NT that we want that can create pressure, but he lets us do way more for our defense than you might think.

His constant double teaming might not be sexy, but it's real and it makes a difference. Didn't he miss significant time during the stretch where the Ravens were shredded on the ground this year?


I don't know if anyone is talking about cutting him this year. After the 2014 season at least is when he could be released IMO.

I agree that he is a very good player still who does do dirty work in the run game. The problem is he is being payed to be the best DT in the league and he rarely makes an impact in rushing the passer. He's one dimensional. This past year he was relatively healthy. I don't think missed much time at all.
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#17 bnickle

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:46 PM

Yeah, I've bitched about Ngata in the past but I realized this year that he is still the lynchpin to this DL. He was the DL the opposition was focusing on, and he also does his job in the run game as far as swallowing up blockers and holding his ground.

 

 

We've always wanted more of a pass rush from him and we've never consistently got it. I think that pisses some people off that he is paid so much and isn't a complete DT. I've criticized for that as well, but what he does do he still does very well.



#18 Mackus

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:01 PM

Again, just to say this, if we just cut Ngata outright this year, we'd miss him a heck of a lot more than people think we would.  He does a lot of little things well.  And he might not be the dominant interior NT that we want that can create pressure, but he lets us do way more for our defense than you might think.  

 

His constant double teaming might not be sexy, but it's real and it makes a difference.  Didn't he miss significant time during the stretch where the Ravens were shredded on the ground this year?

 

We'd miss him because we can't replace his production for $1M in cap savings.

 

I think we could replace his production with $8.5M in cap savings, which will be the case next offseason (or would be the case if we cut him after June 1, though there aren't many good FA options available that late that could replace him).

 

I think he's a very good player, but he's nowhere near worth what he's paid at this point. He's paid to be the best defensive player in the league or in the running for that title.  Of course whether he is worth his contract or not isn't the argument you need to make when deciding to cut him or not.  The question is if you can improve your team with the cap savings.  We almost definitely cannot improve in 2014 by cutting Haloti, since the cap savings are so minimal.



#19 jkough1

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:10 AM

Yeah I don't disagree with you Mackus.  I think the NT spot is a bit harder to find guys that do their jobs really well though.  I don't think he's worth this deal, but it doesn't make sense to me to cut him or rework him this year.  

 

If we can live with this year's allocation against the cap we'll be better served later down the road IMO.  Cut or extension to spread the damage.  And just to clarify, when I said cut I only meant post June 1.  Obviously before June 1 there is no way we're going to cut Rice or Ngata.



#20 Cisc-O's

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:56 PM

Ngata has Sam Adams body. Of course we paid him to much but he plays an excellent nose tackle without much of a rush but he does crash the line more often then not.

I am pretty sure Shack is thinking of PBR.





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