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#1361 Slidemaster

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 12:55 PM

First would be common sense. Teams always looking for edge. Teams filming for decades. Teams actively stealing signs forever.

Second would be those in the game saying so... like the quote above from The Athletic. Or Tim Flannery (former Giants coach) saying how they had a camera trained on opposing 3rd base coaches every game. Yes, this is 'more' than what Flannery was doing, but it's just another step.




I think this is several steps beyond anything you're describing. Murder is several steps past having a temper tantrum at someone too. Those steps matter.

#1362 Slidemaster

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 12:56 PM

The original story on the topic that said that Beltran and Cora had both seen similar activities with previous clubs.


Did that quote come from Beltran and Cora directly?

#1363 mweb08

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:06 PM

If doing what Houston was proven to have done was widespread, then that should be able to be proven as well.

Now, if other teams were going to the same extent, then this becomes more akin to PEDs to me, because it would be a relatively level playing field.

I have not seen enough evidence to suggest that is the case, though.

Furthermore, I think steroids were actually more acceptable in the spectrum of gaining advantages in MLB than was using technology to relay catcher signs to the batter. It had become implicitly accepted that pitchers and batters could be using PEDs over the course of many decades, while stealing signs from the catcher without a player literally watching that sign had always been considered against the accepted norms of the game.

#1364 DJ MC

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 04:37 PM

Did that quote come from Beltran and Cora directly?

 

Yes, they were totally willing to self-incriminate themselves.


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#1365 Slidemaster

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 05:23 PM

Yes, they were totally willing to self-incriminate themselves.


If it didn't come from those two directly, it's a curious thing to hear, isn't it? "They" (Beltran and Cora) said they saw this happening in other places.

Who did they say this two? Where did this even come from?

#1366 russsnyder

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 07:20 PM

It’s only natural that if you allow sign stealing, that it will progress into something larger.

If you don’t want “the larger” in the game, get rid of sign stealing.

Otherwise, all you are doing is enabling it.


I think you make a good point.

While I think what the Astros did was wrong, I can see where it was easy for these guys to rationalize the use of the video feed.

After all, they are just doing an enhanced version of what they have been taught to do.

IMO, the only way to completely rid this version of sign stealing is to get rid of instant replay and ban video from the clubhouses and dugouts during games.

Neither of these things will happen.

#1367 Slidemaster

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 07:23 PM

I think you make a good point.

While I think what the Astros did was wrong, I can see where it was easy for these guys to rationalize the use of the video feed.

After all, they are just doing an enhanced version of what they have been taught to do.

IMO, the only way to completely rid this version of sign stealing is to get rid of instant replay and ban video from the clubhouses and dugouts during games.

Neither of these things will happen.

For me, the part that is beyond the pale isn't the video, but relaying the info in real time to the hitter, and the fact that the opposing team can't change their signs.

Those things put this on a whole different level.

#1368 russsnyder

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 07:25 PM

Yes, you are when you're standing on second or sitting in the dugout.


You are not a casual observer because you are either in scoring position or a part of a team. Unlike overhearing a conversation that you know nothing about, you have a vested interest.

#1369 russsnyder

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 07:32 PM

For me, the part that is beyond the pale isn't the video, but relaying the info in real time to the hitter, and the fact that the opposing team can't change their signs.

Those things put this on a whole different level.


I see your point, but if you are relaying signs from second you are doing the same thing. The difference is that the Astros were doing it using the centerfield camera. Personally, I am not surprised and don't really have a huge issue with it. Baseball has always been a game where players have been encouraged to get whatever edge they can. The Astros were caught and have paid a price. An interesting storyline will be to see how they do this season. This system has been taken away and they are in turmoil.

#1370 Slidemaster

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 07:38 PM

I see your point, but if you are relaying signs from second you are doing the same thing. The difference is that the Astros were doing it using the centerfield camera. Personally, I am not surprised and don't really have a huge issue with it. Baseball has always been a game where players have been encouraged to get whatever edge they can. The Astros were caught and have paid a price. An interesting storyline will be to see how they do this season. This system has been taken away and they are in turmoil.


The other difference is that when the player on 2nd is caught doing it, the catcher can change the signs in seconds. You also have to have a player on 2nd to begin with, which statistically makes it much harder to do.

#1371 russsnyder

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 07:44 PM

The other difference is that when the player on 2nd is caught doing it, the catcher can change the signs in seconds. You also have to have a player on 2nd to begin with, which statistically makes it much harder to do.


Most of the time the gesture from second is too subtle for a catcher to pick up on. You are essentially tipping the pitch in real time.

In my earlier post I alluded that the Astros'useage of the
center field camera was a huge advantage.

#1372 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 11:13 PM

I’m not sure why this thread is so long.

Using equipment to steal signs is forbidden.

Using your eyes to decipher a code is not.

One isn’t the same as the other. One isn’t kinda like the other. There is no gray area to discuss.
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#1373 Slidemaster

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 11:42 PM

I’m not sure why this thread is so long.

Using equipment to steal signs is forbidden.

Using your eyes to decipher a code is not.

One isn’t the same as the other. One isn’t kinda like the other. There is no gray area to discuss.


I completely agree. I really don't see why this is so difficult to understand.

I think there's a mindset around some that because cheating in some way has always been around in every professional sport, that every example of cheating is expected and borderline accepted. I just don't feel that way.

#1374 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 08:27 AM

CBS Sports: MLB rumors: Red Sox moving closer to dealing Mookie Betts; Mitch Moreland returns to Boston

https://www.cbssport...urns-to-boston/

#1375 mweb08

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 09:08 PM

https://twitter.com/...3430924289?s=19
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#1376 mweb08

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 09:19 PM

The deal is apparently done pending physicals.

Betts and Price to the Dodgers!

#1377 BSLRobShields

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 09:30 PM

Major move there.

Minnesota is involved in the deal too.
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#1378 BSLRobShields

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 09:47 PM

https://twitter.com/...9006599168?s=21
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#1379 BSLRobShields

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 09:51 PM

So Red Sox add Verdugo and a top 100 prospect and sheds salary.
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#1380 DJ MC

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 10:18 PM

From Twitter: the last time the Red Sox traded a player with 40+ WAR before turning 27?

Some girl named Baby.
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