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#1901 NewMarketSean

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 04:55 PM

I hate to sound insensitive to it because I’m not but how much racial profiling is happening? The city is 65 percent black, the cops are 40 percent black.
I never had friends later on like the ones I had when I was twelve. Jesus, does anyone?

#1902 Mackus

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 05:27 PM


And they're gonna lose another resident soon...my sister is selling her Fed Hill place and looking to move to the county.


They don't lose a resident in this scenario. Someone is buying the house :)

#1903 BSLRobShields

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:18 PM



Also, racial profiling isn't exactly helping with building relationships and trust with minority communities,

Love this point.  Nail on the head here.

 

But....at what point does "getting things in line" overweigh this?

 

Put it another way....Lets say you have to be total fucktards as a department for a year...you profile, you are basically totally assholes to the people...but it works and you get things back in line.

 

Was the juice worth the squeeze at that point in your opinion?


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#1904 BSLRobShields

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:22 PM


The Police need to be able to do their jobs, and they shouldn't lack for resources. The bodycameras should be a win for them, not a perceived negative. 

They also need what you said, better relations with the Community.  Which means the Police have to do a better job communicating with local leaders, and some members of the Community have to be more receptive to addressing 'stop snitching' mentality, and embracing more aggressive policing. 

It also means that corruption within the Department has to be rooted out, and over policing can't be tolerated. 


 

I've made the point here numerous times. I've made it personally.  I'm saying it again.  Baltimore & St. Louis are the only major cities in the country not incorporated into the surrounding county.  That's huge.  It takes away the larger tax base.  

It also leads those of us outside the City too often say it's up to 'them.'   There is no them.  It's us. We're one us. 

There is no left and right here.  Right or wrong.  There are a million different things at play, and it's going take all of us to address and work to build up our home. 


Each of us individually can find out what that means.   For Mike, and Corey, etc it's teaching downtown.   For Lindsay (Rob's wife) it's employing some people, and some of the charitable work she does. 

For me, it's giving free membership to my group to a number of charities and trying to highlight their efforts.  And doing the same with a number of start-ups around the region. The overall belief being we can build ourselves up through small business, and trying to support those companies / organizations which are trying to grow.  I spend a lot of time playing matchmaker trying to put some leaders and drivers of good together. 

There are some amazing people in this region who do some incredibly inspiring things.  I believe as a region we have a lot to be proud of. The things we're not proud of, we need to work to address.  The rest of my life will be spent trying.  And honestly there are days I get down, and fantasize about moving to Aruba or across the Country to the Pacific NW... but ultimately I want to try and be part of the solution here. I believe in what we can be, because of the people I've met. 


Sorry, got on my soapbox and got carried away.   Carry on.
 

So, Lindsay has a close friend (and one of her employees) who is leaving to move to Washington for work.  He was over here tonight and we were talking about this.  They are from the west coast and they never saw the "segregation" and racism stuff that he saw over here.  He is a marine and was saying there isn't even really that stuff in the armed forces either.  He was saying on the west coast, "racism" is more light hearted bantering between people but nothing is ever mean.  

 

Of course, they weren't founded as states and things like that back when all of this really started, so that attitude wasn't passed down to them.

 

But I just found it interesting listening to him talk about how different it is over there.


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#1905 DJ MC

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:25 PM

Love this point.  Nail on the head here.

 

But....at what point does "getting things in line" overweigh this?

 

Put it another way....Lets say you have to be total fucktards as a department for a year...you profile, you are basically totally assholes to the people...but it works and you get things back in line.

 

Was the juice worth the squeeze at that point in your opinion?

 

Would you be OK with it if you lived there and you were in the profiled group?


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#1906 Mackus

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:26 PM

Was the juice worth the squeeze at that point in your opinion?

 

Question wasn't posed to me...but I'd say no.

 

Our rights as citizens and our way of life is a major part of being American.  Taking away rights, which I'd argue you are doing by advocating (hypothetically advocating, at least) policing tactics that go far beyond what I consider to be fair and legal treatment of citizens.  We should not accept that, IMO.

 

I suppose it's sort of like opposing torture during warfare.  In addition to mostly being considered a counter-productive method of gathering intelligence, I think it really matters to remain loyal to the social contract that defines us and do things that we as Americans consider right.  The rules are what define the society, and if we break them, then we lose even when it might seem like we've won.



#1907 BSLRobShields

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:27 PM

Around where I am, they are cancelling events because of issues.  They have curfews at WM mall and the Avenue for kids.  The schools are getting worse because of people lying about where they live.

 

Now, this isn't all because of the city and while I see people saying that, its flat out wrong.  However, a lot of it is from the city and they aren't issues that existed even 2 years ago.

 

Its getting bad.  Something really needs to be figured out.  I believe leadership is a big issue and I don't say that because its liberal leadership.  Shaeffer was a liberal and his leadership wasn't really a question.  So, I don't want to make it about that.

 

I am just saying that the ideas, implementation of things and whatnot is a real issue and the leadership in the city and the county is really awful.  


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#1908 DJ MC

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:28 PM

So, Lindsay has a close friend (and one of her employees) who is leaving to move to Washington for work.  He was over here tonight and we were talking about this.  They are from the west coast and they never saw the "segregation" and racism stuff that he saw over here.  He is a marine and was saying there isn't even really that stuff in the armed forces either.  He was saying on the west coast, "racism" is more light hearted bantering between people but nothing is ever mean.  

 

Of course, they weren't founded as states and things like that back when all of this really started, so that attitude wasn't passed down to them.

 

But I just found it interesting listening to him talk about how different it is over there.

 

The Pacific Northwest doesn't have a perfect history, either.

 

https://en.wikipedia...acism_in_Oregon


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#1909 BSLRobShields

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:29 PM

Question wasn't posed to me...but I'd say no.

 

Our rights as citizens and our way of life is a major part of being American.  Taking away rights, which I'd argue you are doing by advocating (hypothetically advocating, at least) policing tactics that go far beyond what I consider to be fair and legal treatment of citizens.  We should not accept that, IMO.

 

I suppose it's sort of like opposing torture during warfare.  In addition to mostly being considered a counter-productive method of gathering intelligence, I think it really matters to remain loyal to the social contract that defines us and do things that we as Americans consider right.  The rules are what define the society, and if we break them, then we lose even when it might seem like we've won.

And this is the crux of things.  This is, of course, an excellent point and what you worry about.

 

But you have that other side of things...where the streets are cleaner, crime is down and people feel safer..people come back to the city more than they are, etc...

 

Antoine said you can't crack heads...I disagree personally.  While I agree that its not the ideal situation, it has gotten so bad that drastic measures need to be taken to get shit back in line.  I certainly agree it shouldn't have to be like that.


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#1910 BSLRobShields

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:32 PM

Would you be OK with it if you lived there and you were in the profiled group?

In my old store, which was essentially a step above a pawn shop (a business that fairly or unfairly is profiled all the time), I got profiled.  I got thrown into an investigation that I literally had nothing to do with.  There was nothing connecting me with any of it but they tried to roll me (and my business partner) into it.  We cooperated with things, proved we weren't involved and nothing came of it.

 

Did I like it? Hell no.  But did it make me go ballistic, disrespect them, etc....?  No.  Just tried to deal with it as much as I could.

 

However, while I didn't like it, I did understand it.  I get that sometimes who you associate with comes back on you. 


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#1911 DJ MC

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:55 PM

And this is the crux of things.  This is, of course, an excellent point and what you worry about.

 

But you have that other side of things...where the streets are cleaner, crime is down and people feel safer..people come back to the city more than they are, etc...

 

Antoine said you can't crack heads...I disagree personally.  While I agree that its not the ideal situation, it has gotten so bad that drastic measures need to be taken to get shit back in line.  I certainly agree it shouldn't have to be like that.

 

Ok, I have a scenario.

 

As Chris said, one of the biggest issues that has faced the city for decades is the loss of the tax base. As wealthier residents have moved to the suburbs, the city has been less able to afford the costs of providing essential services to the remaining population--policing, firefighting, road repair, etc.--let alone anything beyond that might help people position themselves better for their future.

 

So lets say someone comes up with a workable plan that involves two main parts:

 

1. Consolidation of the City and the inner County--northeast to the Big Gunpowder, southwest to the Patapsco, and north and northwest in an arc-ish surrounding Hunt Valley, Owings Mills, and Randallstown. The rest of Baltimore County will be divided somehow east-west along York Road/83 and be split between Harford and Carroll counties. The police and fire departments will consolidate, and the city schools will come under the administration of the county schools.

 

2. Some form of non-resident fee for those outside of the city who wish to use its amenities. Maybe an income tax on outside workers employed in the city. Maybe a sales tax on anyone paying with a credit or debit account with a billing address outside of the city. Maybe some combination of these and other ideas.

 

These would be phased-in over time, and have analysts predict them to at least ease many of the issues by giving the new consolidated city expanded resources. There could even be some form of charter change as a compromise to force changes in leadership--bringing in a city manager, maybe?

 

So the questions are: would you be at least open to a plan like this? If not (and really, I don't think many people would be, even in the city), is there something in your mind that you would support in terms of giving the city the resources it simply doesn't have right now?


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#1912 DJ MC

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:58 PM

In my old store, which was essentially a step above a pawn shop (a business that fairly or unfairly is profiled all the time), I got profiled.  I got thrown into an investigation that I literally had nothing to do with.  There was nothing connecting me with any of it but they tried to roll me (and my business partner) into it.  We cooperated with things, proved we weren't involved and nothing came of it.

 

Did I like it? Hell no.  But did it make me go ballistic, disrespect them, etc....?  No.  Just tried to deal with it as much as I could.

 

However, while I didn't like it, I did understand it.  I get that sometimes who you associate with comes back on you. 

 

Fair enough, but since you point out that this was your old store (you have since moved on to other endeavors), do you think you would have put up with that indefinitely, and would you have been OK with expanding that level of enforcement with less chance for consequences were something bad to happen to you or your property?


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#1913 BSLRobShields

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 07:16 PM

Fair enough, but since you point out that this was your old store (you have since moved on to other endeavors), do you think you would have put up with that indefinitely, and would you have been OK with expanding that level of enforcement with less chance for consequences were something bad to happen to you or your property?


In our business, we get harassed by the police frequently, mostly for bs reasons.

So yes, I would put up with it because it’s the nature of the business.

I had them come in one time and I did something wrong. I told them I was wrong and wanted to pay the fine right there. If I fuck up, I own it. I don’t point the finger at someone else. I just do my best to not fuck up so I’m not put into a situation where I’m a target.
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#1914 BSLRobShields

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 07:20 PM

Ok, I have a scenario.

As Chris said, one of the biggest issues that has faced the city for decades is the loss of the tax base. As wealthier residents have moved to the suburbs, the city has been less able to afford the costs of providing essential services to the remaining population--policing, firefighting, road repair, etc.--let alone anything beyond that might help people position themselves better for their future.

So lets say someone comes up with a workable plan that involves two main parts:

1. Consolidation of the City and the inner County--northeast to the Big Gunpowder, southwest to the Patapsco, and north and northwest in an arc-ish surrounding Hunt Valley, Owings Mills, and Randallstown. The rest of Baltimore County will be divided somehow east-west along York Road/83 and be split between Harford and Carroll counties. The police and fire departments will consolidate, and the city schools will come under the administration of the county schools.

2. Some form of non-resident fee for those outside of the city who wish to use its amenities. Maybe an income tax on outside workers employed in the city. Maybe a sales tax on anyone paying with a credit or debit account with a billing address outside of the city. Maybe some combination of these and other ideas.

These would be phased-in over time, and have analysts predict them to at least ease many of the issues by giving the new consolidated city expanded resources. There could even be some form of charter change as a compromise to force changes in leadership--bringing in a city manager, maybe?

So the questions are: would you be at least open to a plan like this? If not (and really, I don't think many people would be, even in the city), is there something in your mind that you would support in terms of giving the city the resources it simply doesn't have right now?


I would love to be part of Harford Co..in fact, if I don’t move out of state, I anticipate I will be in the coming year or so.

And no, I don’t support giving resources to the city or this state in general. I have no faith in leadership to spend it wisely. I don’t want to give it federally either. They all suck and just piss it away.

Here’s the thing..I have lived in Baltimore most of my life. I love parts of the city and think some of it is great.

But I also don’t really care about it. I’m not one to sit there and defend Baltimore like someone like Chris. I have no attachment to it. I just get disgusted with it and it’s politics. But really, that’s Maryland in general for me. I can recognize the greatness of it but the negatives far outweigh the positives for me.


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#1915 mweb08

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 09:59 PM

There's a difference with putting up with BS from the police because you choose to be in a business that attracts that sort of attention compared to simply being African American.
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#1916 mweb08

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 10:04 PM

Anyone who is disgusted by Baltimore, should be disgusted with what caused the elements of Baltimore that they're disgusted by. And of course they should understand what did cause it.

#1917 mweb08

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 10:10 PM

Love this point. Nail on the head here.

But....at what point does "getting things in line" overweigh this?

Put it another way....Lets say you have to be total fucktards as a department for a year...you profile, you are basically totally assholes to the people...but it works and you get things back in line.

Was the juice worth the squeeze at that point in your opinion?


If doing that is within the law as well as the Constitution, then without knowing other details, it's probably cool. If not, then no.

#1918 NewMarketSean

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 07:41 AM

They don't lose a resident in this scenario. Someone is buying the house :)

 

If they are coming from the county you are correct. If they currently live in the city the city is losing a resident.


I never had friends later on like the ones I had when I was twelve. Jesus, does anyone?

#1919 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 09:01 AM

The city should just be taken over by the state. Everyone in City Hall is clearly too incompetent to do the job. (Jack Young, acting as Mayor is laughable. Bigger Idiot than Pugh). They give themselves raises as the city crumbles around them and schools can’t even get the proper amenities.

Let the state have a look at the books (that are probably fucked anyway), have them look at their priorities, which are definitely out of whack, and get them in order. Have the state do the financial analysis. Figure out how much money is coming in, where it’s going. Outside eyes make an unbiased financial plan for the next few years. One focused on lowering property taxes which are double the next highest in the state. One focused on lowering the income tax which is the highest allowed by law. One focused on making schools worth going to. One that doesn’t include raises for City Hall officials who are not hurting with their salaries. Better Taxes and better schools will keep people in the city.

Maybe in 10 years, give the city their own government back, under close supervision of the state, with strict rules enacted by the state to prevent any downfall again.
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#1920 mweb08

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 10:57 AM

Could not disagree with that anymore.

Besides, that violates the Constitution.




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