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MASN: Flores on Martin and the positive influence of Iglesias


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#1 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 08:20 AM

MASN: Flores on Martin and the positive influence of Iglesias

https://www.masnspor...f-iglesias.html



#2 Mike B

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 10:56 AM

MASN: Flores on Martin and the positive influence of Iglesias

https://www.masnspor...f-iglesias.html

Forgot all about Martin.  He probably lands on the taxi squad if there is a season.


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#3 dude

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 01:36 PM

Meaningless filler.



#4 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 03:03 PM

Meaningless filler.


The article? Martin? Both? 

Without the pandemic, I liked the idea of Martin going to AAA, playing everyday and see what progression he made. 
Did enough offensively at AA in '18 to feel he has some promise there.  I think he showed to be above-average with the glove, regardless of the horrible public defensive metrics. 

If he did progress, he could be a starting stop-gap option for a year or two. 
If he didn't progress, no harm, nothing lost. 



#5 BSLSteveBirrer

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 03:32 PM

 Every team has a guy on the roster who is pretty much meaningless. Martin is likely just that. But you already have him so, as Chris said, no harm in playing him in 2020 to see if something develops.



#6 Mike B

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 03:56 PM


The article? Martin? Both? 

Without the pandemic, I liked the idea of Martin going to AAA, playing everyday and see what progression he made. 
Did enough offensively at AA in '18 to feel he has some promise there.  I think he showed to be above-average with the glove, regardless of the horrible public defensive metrics. 

If he did progress, he could be a starting stop-gap option for a year or two. 
If he didn't progress, no harm, nothing lost. 

I think if he could hit .260 he could become a weapon with his speed.   .260 is likely a dream, but as you said, no harm seeing what progress he makes.


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#7 dude

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 07:16 PM

The article? Martin? Both? 

 

Both.  We could go through it again, but it always winds up on the same path because we haven't been given a different path.

 

This is the Ruiz, Nunez, Santander, Lowther, Wells, Martin, Alberto discussion.  You are either projecting them to be part of a meaningful team or you aren't. What they do will rarely cause you to come off whatever your core view of a guy is (1SP).  If you think he's part of it, then whatever he does, you are still giving him an opportunity to become whatever you see in your head.  If he performs, you still aren't going to trust him in a significant way for the same reasons.

 

This season is lost.  Nothing that happens this year means much.

 

Iglesias is irrelevant.  Here's the question that should be posed to Flores.  What does 'huge' mean?  He's says the contributions are going to be huge.  Huge in what way?  To winning now? To winning in the future?  Does Flores think this is a competitive team this year?  Next year?  Later?  Why would anything that happens with and around players that have nothing to do with winning in 2022 be 'huge'?  Wait, is the development of these players important for the 2022 season?....so this IS our future competitive team we are just waiting for it's multi-season maturation?

 

A handful of you guys will try to make what they're doing sound meaningful because you want it to be meaningful and don't have an answer to what a competitive roster looks like.  If these ARE the important guys, then WAIVER CLAIMS are the key to a competitive roster.  Is that what anyone wants to stand on?

 

No, of course not, but you have to try and argue. 

So then we're back to "hey, they have to write something" and these are the guys that are here.

 

So, both. 



#8 dude

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 07:34 PM

On Martin. I'll stand behind what I said when we selected him in the Rule 5. He's no different than Caydn Grenier. If Martin is 2 years ahead of him, great, but every reasonable expectation of them as players is that they are glove first SSs stuck in the bottom third of the order. You don't need to develop a guy to get to the same guy.

There are specific reasons I'd prefer Grenier, but it's not because I think he's an offensive threat.

If you want Martin to become a role player, OK, that's fine, but that's mostly irrelevant to figure out who the bottom 8-10 guys on your roster are. There are dozens of guys like that and the Orioles are literally accumulating them off the waiver wire. He doesn't need time at AAA to be a role player in 2019, 2020, 2021 or 2022.

If anyone thinks that Martin is going to become a catalyst for a competitive Orioles team, I'm not sure what to tell you.

It's not personal and he seems like a good kid. It's possible he spends many years in the majors and carves himself out a productive role (like a John McDonald) and that's fine....but it's still mostly meaningless. Not to him and his family's financial security or his worth as a human or whatever, but wrt the Orioles and winning.



#9 russsnyder

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 08:35 PM

On Martin. I'll stand behind what I said when we selected him in the Rule 5. He's no different than Caydn Grenier. If Martin is 2 years ahead of him, great, but every reasonable expectation of them as players is that they are glove first SSs stuck in the bottom third of the order. You don't need to develop a guy to get to the same guy.

There are specific reasons I'd prefer Grenier, but it's not because I think he's an offensive threat.

If you want Martin to become a role player, OK, that's fine, but that's mostly irrelevant to figure out who the bottom 8-10 guys on your roster are. There are dozens of guys like that and the Orioles are literally accumulating them off the waiver wire. He doesn't need time at AAA to be a role player in 2019, 2020, 2021 or 2022.

If anyone thinks that Martin is going to become a catalyst for a competitive Orioles team, I'm not sure what to tell you.

It's not personal and he seems like a good kid. It's possible he spends many years in the majors and carves himself out a productive role (like a John McDonald) and that's fine....but it's still mostly meaningless. Not to him and his family's financial security or his worth as a human or whatever, but wrt the Orioles and winning.


I don't think Greiner has the glove to play major league shortstop. I saw him him play a couple of times at Frederick last year was not real impressed. ( in all fairness, maybe he had a couple of poor games.) He looked overmatched at the plate as well.

While it may not matter in the grand scheme of things, I think Martin has more upside. Worst case, he's a utility player in the big for a few years. I'd like to see him play some center field if he is on the taxi squad or whatever.

#10 russsnyder

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 08:37 PM

I think if he could hit .260 he could become a weapon with his speed. .260 is likely a dream, but as you said, no harm seeing what progress he makes.


That kid can flat out fly on the base paths.

#11 Mike B

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 09:02 PM

That kid can flat out fly on the base paths.

I say this every time I see a young Oriole who can run like Martin.  Have him work with Brian Roberts.  Brian was one of the best I have seen at getting that walking lead and taking off.  With Martin;s speed, he could steal 50 bases if he could hit .250-.260


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#12 dude

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Posted 24 May 2020 - 02:01 AM

I say this every time I see a young Oriole who can run like Martin.  Have him work with Brian Roberts.  Brian was one of the best I have seen at getting that walking lead and taking off.  With Martin;s speed, he could steal 50 bases if he could hit .250-.260

 

Martin is 25+.  He's been in the minors since 2013.  He has 369 games and over 1500 PAs.  He's 59 of 89 in his MiL career.

 

I'm a huge Roberts fan and maybe I'm wrong, but what is he going to learn that others haven't already tried to teach him.  Oakland demanded he not use his speed on the basepaths and refused to let guys run?  His MiL conversion on steals is about 66%.  That's not good and what he sees in most of the Majors will be better.  You could counter that with "he stole 10 of 11  in 2019 in Baltimore."  OK, that was in 309 PA.  He seemed to have gotten to pick his spots (only 11 attempts).  Could he even get on base enough to have a reasonable shot at 50?

 

Again, he's a reasonable defender.  He has good speed. Is a Utility player or the starting SS on a competitive team?  How many seasons do you want to take to figure it out?  



#13 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 24 May 2020 - 05:21 AM

On Martin. I'll stand behind what I said when we selected him in the Rule 5. He's no different than Caydn Grenier. If Martin is 2 years ahead of him, great, but every reasonable expectation of them as players is that they are glove first SSs stuck in the bottom third of the order. You don't need to develop a guy to get to the same guy.

There are specific reasons I'd prefer Grenier, but it's not because I think he's an offensive threat.

If you want Martin to become a role player, OK, that's fine, but that's mostly irrelevant to figure out who the bottom 8-10 guys on your roster are. There are dozens of guys like that and the Orioles are literally accumulating them off the waiver wire. He doesn't need time at AAA to be a role player in 2019, 2020, 2021 or 2022.

If anyone thinks that Martin is going to become a catalyst for a competitive Orioles team, I'm not sure what to tell you.

It's not personal and he seems like a good kid. It's possible he spends many years in the majors and carves himself out a productive role (like a John McDonald) and that's fine....but it's still mostly meaningless. Not to him and his family's financial security or his worth as a human or whatever, but wrt the Orioles and winning.

 

I find him different than Grenier.  

Martin had an .807 OPS year at AA in '18, and while over-matched to begin '19 in the Majors... did show month-to-month improvement. 

Grenier - there were offensive questions when you made the selection - and while his offensive numbers improved at Delmarva (Y2), he's yet to get past High A. 

 

Of course Martin is 2 years older, so that does factor too.   Martin DOB 12/22/94, Grenier 10/31/96.

 

The general comparison between the two is fine, but not super relevant. 

 

The Orioles lack Middle INF talent in their system. 

Maybe the O's add Austin Martin soon, and make him a SS until / if he shows he can't stay there.
Cool. Great. Hopefully. 


Today, the O's system is devoid of Middle INFs. 

 

So, when you have a Richie Martin... a former 1st rounder, with a capable glove, wheels, who has shown something offensively at AA.... you keep evaluating him. 

Ideally he would have gone to AAA this year, had an extended run there, and shown you something either way.
Either hitting enough to earn another chance, or not progressing enough overall. 

 

I don't think the Orioles as is, are in a position to evaluate every player as they are today, through the lens of, "Can player x be part of the next playoff team?"  Nor do I think they should. 

The O's still need to be in the accumulating talent and depth phase. 
You accumulate options and possibilities. As you move closer to contention, you move some of your depth for weaknesses, or areas which need to be upgraded to allow you to contend. 

 

I think Martin is a good example of a player you (the Orioles) shouldn't close the book on immediately. 
As a Rule 5 type, he was a sub 600 OPS guys in 2019.  The easy evaluation for everyone can be, "Probably isn't going to be a long-term answer." 

 

No kidding. 

 

However, you can look at his profile... and understand there is some ability there. 
If this had been a normal year, and we're ending May, and he's tearing up the International League... why couldn't he be an option to replace Iglesias in '21?  (Or '20, if Iglesias* was moved elsewhere?)  

*Iglesias seems like a good comp to the player you'd hope Martin could possibly become. A contender could win with Iglesias as their starting SS. 

 

If '21 Martin was giving you an Iglesias impersonation at no cost, at age 26... well, then he could be the starting SS on a competitive team. 

 

Or maybe... not.  And maybe you look around, and believe you can upgrade on whatever he's giving you.
And you use him, and other depth, and find an option you prefer. 

 

There are variables. Many of them reliant on letting some things play themselves out, vs. making predetermined evaluations. 

 

 

As is, I'd suggest this pandemic has really hurt Martin.  
He needed to be playing everyday at AAA, and proving to the O's he could hit at that level. 
With no MiL baseball, he's probably part of the Orioles roster, or at-least the proposed taxi squad. 
With Iglesias around, he won't get regular time, regular ab's. That will be difficult.  He'll have to take advantage of the limited chances he does get.


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#14 BSLSteveBirrer

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Posted 24 May 2020 - 07:15 AM

Dude I totally don't get your perspective on Martin. He is already on the roster. Should we just dump him and pick up some other bottom of the order weak hitting ss? 

 

Its a freebie to roll with him this season.



#15 dude

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Posted 24 May 2020 - 11:03 AM

Dude I totally don't get your perspective on Martin. He is already on the roster. Should we just dump him and pick up some other bottom of the order weak hitting ss? 

 

Its a freebie to roll with him this season.

 

Well, I didn't start the thread and I didn't write the article.  I didn't make the comments on Martin and Iglesias.  I'm only commenting on them.

 

I've said, many times, the things I think they should do.



#16 dude

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 11:54 AM

I don't think the Orioles as is, are in a position to evaluate every player as they are today, through the lens of, "Can player x be part of the next playoff team?"  Nor do I think they should. 


The O's still need to be in the accumulating talent and depth phase. 
You accumulate options and possibilities. As you move closer to contention, you move some of your depth for weaknesses, or areas which need to be upgraded to allow you to contend. 

 

So when are they going to start any of this?

 

You have one trade chip left:  Givens.



#17 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 12:04 PM

So when are they going to start any of this?

 

You have one trade chip left:  Givens.

 

Is trading today their only way of obtaining talent? 
As other talent accumulates, you'll have other pieces to trade aside from Givens.



#18 dude

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 10:00 AM

Is trading today their only way of obtaining talent? 
As other talent accumulates, you'll have other pieces to trade aside from Givens.

 

No.

 

...but when we started discussing this before the 2019 season, your generic competitive timeline had them competing in 2022, right?

 

Have we added a single unique player that supports competing in 2022?  Anyone?

 

They've had 2 offseasons and last season and while this season has been torched, they weren't doing anything unique to add Talent this year other than hoping Givens pitched well enough to generate some interest.



#19 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 10:09 AM

I still think they can contend in '22, albeit I'm in a bit of wait-and-see mode currently to determine how this year impacts the org development. 

Particularly Rutschman, Rodriguez, Hall.  If all they get is extended Spring, obviously that hurts time wise. 

 



No, the Orioles have not obtained significant external talent. 
It's also not a worry of mine. 



#20 dude

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 10:18 AM

*Iglesias seems like a good comp to the player you'd hope Martin could possibly become. A contender could win with Iglesias as their starting SS. 

 

I wanted to comment on this.  Before the 2019 season I actually described a lineup (that everyone hated) that included Iglesias as the SS.

 

If you want to have a defense first, limited bat SS as your guy, you can do that and compete.  It has some limits to your upside but those guys aren't hard to add.  We have one in the system (Grenier), we got one in the Rule 5 draft (Martin), we signed one readily available (Iglesias) and there's still another guy still unsigned (I think) like Hechavarria (where we were apparently deciding between the 2).

 

I'm a big JJ Hardy (.690 OPS as an Oriole, .682 in 2014) and Mike Bordick (.713 OPS as an Oriole) fan so I'm OK (in general) with giving up some offense to get something you want....so if you want Martin (or whoever) to be that guy, OK, you just have to compensate in the lineup around him (team) to build whatever opportunity you want.

 

So if you wanted Iglesias to be your 'competitive' SS or you want Martin to be that guy, whatever, OK, then he is and you do whatever else you need to do...you aren't 'rebuilding' to get that guy.

 

My only point on Iglesias is that if he's teaching something to Alberto and Ruiz (or Martin), so what.  Are they all part of the final picture too?  It can't be both ways.  You can't say "we're growing for the future" if those players aren't part of the future.  That is nothing.  Unless these guy ARE part of the future, then we think we've accomplished something through the waiver wire?






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