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Cal speaks on the cheating Astros


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#1 RShack

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 01:12 AM

Cal on the cheating Astro's.... 

 

https://www.washingt...oo-hard-astros/

 

Towards the end he talks about an O's SP who 25 years ago worried about sign-stealers enough that vs certain teams he used his very own A-B-E system to confound sign-stealers... different sets of signs based on the count: one set for Ahead, another set for Behind, and a third set for an Even count... Cal said it worked fine at keeping the other team confused... but if the scoreboard was wrong about the count, it was a mess...

 

Doesn't say who it was though... I'm guessing it had to be Mussina... simply because what other P would even think of something like that?


 "You say you've lost your faith, but that's not where its at.

  You have no faith to lose, and ya know it" - Bob Dylan


#2 Mike B

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 10:04 AM

First welcome back.  

Good article.  Cal remains a baseball man, that always makes you think and always seems to have a different take or perspective than anyone else.

I would really be interested in who the three teams they suspected, of using different methods to cheat, back in his day.

 

He is right about the inside fastball, when a pitcher thinks a player is stealing signs and is looking for the curve ball.

 

Baseball has become so PC, that the ways pitchers and teams dealt with some things in the past have gone away.


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#3 DJ MC

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 10:08 AM

Baseball has become so PC, that the ways pitchers and teams dealt with some things in the past have gone away.

 

Ray_Chapman_Baseball.jpg

 

"I agree. Buncha wusses."


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#4 Mike B

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 10:22 AM

Best guess, of the pitcher who changed signs, using the ABE method.  Mussina.


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#5 Mike B

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 10:23 AM

Ray_Chapman_Baseball.jpg

 

"I agree. Buncha wusses."

Good, could have been a picture of Gibson, Drysdale etc.


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#6 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 10:38 AM

Good, could have been a picture of Gibson, Drysdale etc.


Or Sutcliffe.  

Or even Adam Jones. 

 



#7 dude

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 10:39 AM

I would really be interested in who the three teams they suspected, of using different methods to cheat, back in his day.

 

I'd guess one of them was Toronto.  There was always some rumor of a guy (fan, I guess) in CF that would (I'm trying to remember)....like have his drink on the fence one way and hold it off the other...whatever it was...something.



#8 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 10:40 AM

I'd guess one of them was Toronto.  There was always some rumor of a guy (fan, I guess) in CF that would (I'm trying to remember)....like have his drink on the fence one way and hold it off the other...whatever it was...something.


The Orioles suspected Toronto had a camera they utilized in the hotel. 



#9 Mike B

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 10:43 AM


The Orioles suspected Toronto had a camera they utilized in the hotel. 

Other teams have suspected that too.

Boston was another, who has been accused of that.


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#10 dude

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 10:54 AM

I guess the only thing I don't understand about Cal's opinion is there doesn't seem to be distancing between between the forms of 'stealing'.

 

If (and it can be a fact if you want) the '51 Giants were using a telescope to steal signs and rely them to the hitters/dugout then that is cheating akin to the Astros. That is clearly outside the intention of the game.

 

I draw a hard line between guys on the field and guys/tools/tech that's outside the field of play.

 

If Cal wants to draw a 'spirit of the game' line between [hitter vs pitcher] and [guy on second base, hitter and pitcher], OK, he can do that....he made that choice....but it's no secret to anyone that there's a guy on 2B.  Nobody is confused about who the uniformed older guy is standing in a box next to 3B or 1B.

 

The issue for me is when you have a world of tech or options out there and you can't possibly understand or protect from every option.

 

Go watch the video and post commentary of the Davish start in Game 7.  They weren't stealing signs, they were looking into his glove at his grip.  It was aggressive batting practice for the Astros.


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#11 dude

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 11:02 AM

Blue Jays sign stealing story.  This was 2009-2010 ....so after Cal.... 


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#12 russsnyder

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 03:27 PM

I guess the only thing I don't understand about Cal's opinion is there doesn't seem to be distancing between between the forms of 'stealing'.

If (and it can be a fact if you want) the '51 Giants were using a telescope to steal signs and rely them to the hitters/dugout then that is cheating akin to the Astros. That is clearly outside the intention of the game.

I draw a hard line between guys on the field and guys/tools/tech that's outside the field of play.

If Cal wants to draw a 'spirit of the game' line between [hitter vs pitcher] and [guy on second base, hitter and pitcher], OK, he can do that....he made that choice....but it's no secret to anyone that there's a guy on 2B. Nobody is confused about who the uniformed older guy is standing in a box next to 3B or 1B.

The issue for me is when you have a world of tech or options out there and you can't possibly understand or protect from every option.

Go watch the video and post commentary of the Davish start in Game 7. They weren't stealing signs, they were looking into his glove at his grip. It was aggressive batting practice for the Astros.


His choosing not to relay signs from second may have cost his team a game or two. I think he should have passed on the information.

I personally don't see a difference between picking a catcher's signs from second or picking up a tell from the bench. However, he obviously has an extremely high moral ground.

Also, I remember reading that the Giants were suspected of stealing signs in 51 with a telescope in the 70's.

#13 Mike B

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 04:41 PM

Blue Jays sign stealing story.  This was 2009-2010 ....so after Cal.... 

I had not seen this article before.   Pretty damning, when you look at the numbers.

Selig, blowing off the article kind of rings true to the current joke of a commissioner, who tried to ignore the current situation, until he could not.


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