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MASN: More from Saturday’s Winter Warm-Up


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#21 BSLSethBondroff

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 03:49 PM

What about when we see ownership's influence directly knocking the plan off course?

 

Elias has very clearly not been given unilateral control of a budget.  He's come out and said that ownership continues to meddle and have influence and require approval over minor moves.  And if we have listened to anything Elias has said about adding talent to every level of your organization through every channel available to him, it also seems clear that he'd like to do things like that Angels/Giants trade where you use current MLB salary flexibility to strengthen the farm system.  And if we believe recent reporting, he is not being allowed to do so.

 

That last part is the most open for debate.  But I think we've seen enough from this ownership over the years that it's very easy to believe that they are not willing to spending money to effectively purchase prospects in hopes of improving the farm system.  Elias has convinced them to open the purse strings internationally which is a great piece of work on his part.  But he hasn't been given the basic control that any functional team needs.  

All fair points, that I really can't argue with. 

 

But your last sentence regarding international spending might offer a glimmer of hope that when we're "ready" (I know, i know) that they'll do what it takes. Yes, I realize I have to go back to 2004 (Tejada)and 1996 (Alomar,& crew)for any evidence of this , spending wise, but I have to hold on to some hope. 


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#22 BSLSethBondroff

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 03:51 PM

It got to where I could not give them away the last year or so.   I am probably done as a season ticket holder, although the grands kids may draw me back, when they get a little older.  My son has a 3 year old that asks a lot of questions about the Ravens.  I just bought 2 more PSL's next to my current seats.  The plan is to take the kids, when they get older.  Maybe if the Orioles are good, I will do the same....not sure though.

I don't have the love for Football as most do, so for me, this is it. I've been taking my kids, now 17 and 15 to games since they were little, and they still seem to enjoy it, despite the current product. Hope it lasts. 


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#23 Mike B

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 04:06 PM

I don't have the love for Football as most do, so for me, this is it. I've been taking my kids, now 17 and 15 to games since they were little, and they still seem to enjoy it, despite the current product. Hope it lasts. 

Mine are grown up and or married.  We went to many games, now I can spoil there kids.  Enjoy it,


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#24 PD24

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 04:31 PM

Patience in evaluating Elias is entirely unrelated to the issue of ownership.

 

But ownership is sabotaging his plan already by nitpicking over every little cent he may want to spend rather than setting a budget and getting the hell out of the way.  Elias may be the greatest GM in the history of the sport but he has zero chance of seeing his goals reached if ownership remains what they've always been which is the worst ownership group in the game due to their own stupidity, stubbornness, and greed.  

 

I will fully admit that my desire to see a less pitiful on-field product even if it costs some money is esoteric and easily debatable whether it's worth the money or not.  But nobody can argue against it being shameful that ownership wouldn't have been interested in a money for prospect swap similar to the recent Angels/Giants trade.  There is no explaining that away as anything but ownership spitting in the face of every fan.  If you don't want to spend money to see the team go from 50 wins to 65 wins, I can understand that.  I cannot accept ownership refusing to spend money to improve your farm system by bringing in prospect at great prices (if the Angels had released Wilson, he signs for far more as a free agent than what Cozart has left on his deal).  Missing out on this one deal is not the problem,  not allowing your GM autonomy to spend the money and refusing to even consider the idea is the problem.

 

Did I miss where it was reported that they're interfering/blocking these kinda moves?


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#25 BSLRobShields

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 04:34 PM

The problem with the idea of “his plan worked before” is that he didn’t have a terrible owner behind him.
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#26 BSLSethBondroff

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 04:37 PM

The problem with the idea of “his plan worked before” is that he didn’t have a terrible owner behind him.

I mean rebuilding in general, not necessarily Elias..

 

if that helps.


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#27 BSLRobShields

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 04:38 PM

I mean rebuilding in general, not necessarily Elias..

if that helps.


But still...how many successful tear down and rebuild jobs have occurred on the watch of terrible owners?
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#28 BSLSethBondroff

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 04:40 PM

But still...how many successful tear down and rebuild jobs have occurred on the watch of terrible owners?

No idea, honestly. 


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#29 Mackus

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 04:49 PM

Did I miss where it was reported that they're interfering/blocking these kinda moves?

 

Yes.

 

 

https://www.baltimor...e-9#entry850670

 

Not a Dan Connolly fan but he wrote an article today heavily implying that the Orioles refuse to leverage teams that want to dump salaries for prospects, like the Cozart trade.

 

*Really* disappointing to hear this.  https://theathletic....al-constraints/

 

https://www.baltimor...hiza-story.html



#30 bmore_ken

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 10:24 PM

Yes.

 

 

https://www.baltimor...e-9#entry850670

 

 

https://www.baltimor...hiza-story.html

My problem with that as evidence

Not a Dan Connolly fan but he wrote an article today heavily implying



#31 mdrunning

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Posted 17 December 2019 - 12:48 AM

While I hope that the current Oriole ownership isn't undermining Elias's efforts, I also can't imagine Elias just gritting his teeth and faithfully reciting the party line. 

 

Elias didn't need the Oriole job; he would have had other suitors pursuing him. In other words, the Orioles needed him more than he needed the Orioles. It wasn't like the hiring of Dan Duquette in 2011 (who to me, at least, did a credible job given the circumstances), who had been out of baseball for a decade and took the position after other executives politely declined.

 

Conversely, Elias had the luxury of picking the job that was right for him and gave him the ability to put his stamp on a franchise. No one in his position would have accepted the job if there hadn't been guarantees of complete control.


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#32 weird-O

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Posted 17 December 2019 - 09:02 AM

While I hope that the current Oriole ownership isn't undermining Elias's efforts, I also can't imagine Elias just gritting his teeth and faithfully reciting the party line. 

 

Elias didn't need the Oriole job; he would have had other suitors pursuing him. In other words, the Orioles needed him more than he needed the Orioles. It wasn't like the hiring of Dan Duquette in 2011 (who to me, at least, did a credible job given the circumstances), who had been out of baseball for a decade and took the position after other executives politely declined.

 

Conversely, Elias had the luxury of picking the job that was right for him and gave him the ability to put his stamp on a franchise. No one in his position would have accepted the job if there hadn't been guarantees of complete control.

 

I totally agree. But there is always the possibility that they painted a beautiful Utopian portrait, only to reveal it was a fake, after the ink dried on his contract. I look to the Chris Davis situation. Elias had a much more assertive stance on Davis, when he was first hired. Now all he says is, it's a big contract and we don't take that lightly. I believe the Angelos family is clinging to strands of hope, that he'll become "Crush" again, and they'll get something for their money. I think Elias would have already DFA'd him, if he had the autonomy to do so.  

I can't imagine Elias wasn't aware of the concept of taking on debt, as a way to acquire premium prospects. So either he isn't that smart, or he isn't allowed to make those decisions on his own. He said it himself, If presented with the opportunity, he'd take those proposals to ownership. So why didn't he already do so? 

 

Perhaps MLB franchises have changed how they operate. But the last I heard, it's still common practice for an owner to set a budget, and let their baseball people go to work. I understand that most owners still insist on approving particularly large contracts. But in the case of Cozart, it was a commitment of less than $13M. If Elias is required to get approval to add a ~$13M contract, to a $60 projected payroll, nothing has changed in Baltimore.  


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#33 bmore_ken

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Posted 17 December 2019 - 12:21 PM

While I hope that the current Oriole ownership isn't undermining Elias's efforts, I also can't imagine Elias just gritting his teeth and faithfully reciting the party line. 

 

Elias didn't need the Oriole job; he would have had other suitors pursuing him. In other words, the Orioles needed him more than he needed the Orioles. It wasn't like the hiring of Dan Duquette in 2011 (who to me, at least, did a credible job given the circumstances), who had been out of baseball for a decade and took the position after other executives politely declined.

 

Conversely, Elias had the luxury of picking the job that was right for him and gave him the ability to put his stamp on a franchise. No one in his position would have accepted the job if there hadn't been guarantees of complete control.

Totally agree with all of that.



#34 Mike B

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Posted 17 December 2019 - 01:47 PM

I don't want to be the one, to defend an Angelos ownership, mainly because i think the older Angelos, is the second worst owner in Baltimore Sports history, behind only drunken low life Bob Irsay.

That said, I think the criticism of the younger Angelos, is a bit premature.

 

From here, it seems to me that the sons are letting Elias, re-shape the organization like he wants.

 

Elias has jettisoned pretty much everyone from the old structure, including a couple of the Angelos's family long time favorites.

 

They have also allowed increased activity, in the International market and seemingly have hired an army of  mathematicians for Sig Medal.

I am sure there is a budget,   It probably is a tight budget, but it looks to me, like Elias is spending it where he wants.

The problem I have with the Connolly article is that it makes a large assumption, that Elias wanted this trade or Cozart or held the prospect in high enough regard to take the 12 million hit.

He clearly is following the Astro's model, and is getting payroll down as low as possible.

 

If you want to hammer the Angelos boys for keeping Chris Davis on the roster, I might join you.  I do not think they have the stomach to eat 93 M.


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#35 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 17 December 2019 - 02:01 PM

If you want to hammer the Angelos boys for keeping Chris Davis on the roster, I might join you.  I do not think they have the stomach to eat 93 M.

 

It's really only $69M - three years at $23M each.  There's $24M in deferred money from the first four years of the contract, too, but that was always going to be paid after Davis had left the team, so it shouldn't really be a factor in when to release him.


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#36 Mike B

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Posted 17 December 2019 - 02:11 PM

It's really only $69M - three years at $23M each.  There's $24M in deferred money from the first four years of the contract, too, but that was always going to be paid after Davis had left the team, so it shouldn't really be a factor in when to release him.

Your right, not sure I would say, only, 69 million, but fair point.


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#37 weird-O

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Posted 17 December 2019 - 02:14 PM

I don't want to be the one, to defend an Angelos ownership, mainly because i think the older Angelos, is the second worst owner in Baltimore Sports history, behind only drunken low life Bob Irsay.

That said, I think the criticism of the younger Angelos, is a bit premature.

 

From here, it seems to me that the sons are letting re-shape the organization like he wants.

 

Elias has jettisoned pretty much everyone from the old structure, including a couple of the Angelos's family long time favorites.

 

They have also allowed increased activity, in the International market and seemingly have hired an army of  mathematicians for Sig Medal.

I am sure there is a budget,   It probably is a tight budget, but it looks to me, like Elias is spending it where he wants.

The problem I have with the Connolly article is that it makes a large assumption, that Elias wanted this trade or Cozart or held the prospect in high enough regard to take the 12 million hit.

He clearly is following the Astro's model, and is getting payroll down as low as possible.

 

If you want to hammer the Angelos boys for keeping Chris Davis on the roster, I might join you.  I do not think they have the stomach to eat 93 M.

All good points, many of which I frequently mention. But the shoestring budget seems like a carryover and a family tradition. Right now, it's more a matter of philosophy, because they aren't trying to compete. What about when the day comes that the O's can compete, but in order to do so, they'll have to drop some big FA coin, I'm starting to suspect that they won't. And Elias will stand in a very familiar position of explaining to the fans, that Player X, while being an impact addition, wasn't a good fit. And like many O's GMs before him, he'll look like a fool trying to come up with a story that explains why they were in talks with Player X, even though he didn't fit in with whatever the "Oriole Way" is at that point in time.   

 

Edit: I know I'm doing a lot of s'posin' and I'm talking about what seems like the far off future. But it's the off season, what else is there to really talk about :)


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#38 bmore_ken

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Posted 17 December 2019 - 03:04 PM

I don't want to be the one, to defend an Angelos ownership, mainly because i think the older Angelos, is the second worst owner in Baltimore Sports history, behind only drunken low life Bob Irsay.

That said, I think the criticism of the younger Angelos, is a bit premature.

 

From here, it seems to me that the sons are letting re-shape the organization like he wants.

 

Elias has jettisoned pretty much everyone from the old structure, including a couple of the Angelos's family long time favorites.

 

They have also allowed increased activity, in the International market and seemingly have hired an army of  mathematicians for Sig Medal.

I am sure there is a budget,   It probably is a tight budget, but it looks to me, like Elias is spending it where he wants.

The problem I have with the Connolly article is that it makes a large assumption, that Elias wanted this trade or Cozart or held the prospect in high enough regard to take the 12 million hit.

He clearly is following the Astro's model, and is getting payroll down as low as possible.

 

If you want to hammer the Angelos boys for keeping Chris Davis on the roster, I might join you.  I do not think they have the stomach to eat 93 M.

Exactly my sentiment in post#30



#39 BSLRobShields

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Posted 17 December 2019 - 03:38 PM

The assumption he makes is common sense combined with Elias saying he wants to do these types of moves but needs permission.
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#40 Mackus

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Posted 17 December 2019 - 04:04 PM

Things we know:

 

Orioles ownership's insistence on being involved in every move has been a problem in the past (trades vetoed by owner, not approved in time, budget on a whim, etc)

Orioles have not included salary in order to increase trade return and better build up the farm system in recent trades ('18 deadline and more recently...they did include a small amount of cash with Cashner but not all of his remaining deal)

Elias has said that if an opportunity similar to the Cozart/Wilson trade was available, he'd have to run it by ownership

Elias has said that his key immediate term goal is to improve the talent at every level of the organization

 

Things we're assuming based on above facts:

 

That Elias would want to pursue a trade where you take on salary






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