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Villar traded to Marlins


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#21 Mackus

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 08:54 PM


So should I be mad or not still? Beaner?


I think it's TBD. The return is palatable. If they sign a MLB quality player or find a young guy with some upside for the position, then it's fine. If they don't, then it's the same issue but with one more guy for the back third of your top 30.

#22 BSLSethBondroff

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 08:59 PM

Poor Villar by the way. Was with the Astros before they became the Astros...Went to Milwaukee, and got traded a few months before they went to the NLCS..Then here, no words needed, now Miami. 

 

Seems like a good guy, hopefully he plays for a contender sooner than later. 


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#23 JohnnyK27

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 09:03 PM

I’d bring him back in a heartbeat..may convert him into a closer.

 

It would depend on money ....Obviously the Orioles arent paying him anywhere near 9.5 million. If you can get him at 4 or 5 maybe?



#24 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 09:28 PM

Poor Villar by the way. Was with the Astros before they became the Astros...Went to Milwaukee, and got traded a few months before they went to the NLCS..Then here, no words needed, now Miami. 

 

Seems like a good guy, hopefully he plays for a contender sooner than later. 

 

The good news for him is he'll be an UFA next winter.

 

The bad news for him is, barring another change of teams, he'll enter FA after playing half his games in one of the more pitcher-friendly parks in MLB.



#25 BSLRobShields

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 10:19 PM

Some good stuff by Syzmborski:

https://twitter.com/...6704535556?s=21
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#26 dude

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 10:23 PM

I wonder if they are going to sign Addison Russell. 

If so, the Domestic Violence history is going to be awfully hard to not think about everytime we see him.

They better not.

They are actively advocating for domestic abuse if they do. Maybe you can justify selling your soul a bit if you're gonna be good. If you are awful on the field and full of bad individuals in your organization...that's inexcusable.

I would forever lose all respect for anyone currently in the org if they sign him.

 

I'm confident they aren't signing Russell or anyone else that matters, although I'd have no issue with it if they did.

 

Given that we don't actually know any truth, I'd feel comfortable defending against the legitimacy of the negative position.



#27 dude

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 12:07 AM

The All-non-tender team could be better than the 2020 Orioles.

 

SS Addison Russell

2B Cesar Herandez

RF Steven Souza

1B CJ Cron

DH Travis Shaw

3B Maikel Franco

LF Domingo Santana

CF Kevin Pillar

C  Caleb Joseph

 

Bench: Phegley, JT Riddle, Jose Peraza, Guillerimo Heredia

 

SP: Jimmy Nelson, Javy Guerra, Kevin Gausman, Taijun Walker, Aaron Sanchez

 

BP: Blake Treinen, Ryan Buchter, Danny Hultzen



#28 mdrunning

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 01:02 AM

Some good stuff by Syzmborski:

https://twitter.com/...6704535556?s=21

The middle and lower classes of players are being squeezed. Seems like we've been hearing that for quite some time. I'm not sure how vexing a problem that actually is for the MLBPA, however. The 35-year-old veteran who gets unvoluntarily retired is out of baseball and therefore, out of the union. Some 21-year-old who thinks he'll someday hit the free agent lottery will take his place.

 

I do agree with Syzmborski's take on baseball's salary hyper-inflation from the 70s thru the 90s being due in large part to old-school front offices who ran the business of baseball without really understanding the business. The true stars would set the salary bar every year, then the lesser lights would cash in as well. Now you're seeing the truly elite players landing the mega-deals, but teams are now filling in around them more and more with the 1 to 3-year players who work cheap.


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#29 BSLRobShields

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 06:10 AM

I said it for years over at OH(not that I was the only one). Paying for these middling FAs always has been dumb. Those contracts almost never work out.

I don’t get why it took the execs so long to figure that out.

It’s why organizational depth is so important. A middling FA is going to get 8-15M a year. You should be able to get middling FA production from your minor leaguers.

You shouldn’t have to pay the Tommy Hunters of the world 2/17. That guy should be in your minor leagues.

It’s just smart baseball and the players union has to get used to it. It’s not collusion or anything else that they want to make up. They have just gotten smarter.
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#30 NewMarketSean

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 07:50 AM

Odd that he goes to the Marlins.


I never had friends later on like the ones I had when I was twelve. Jesus, does anyone?

#31 Ricker Says

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 10:16 AM

I said it for years over at OH(not that I was the only one). Paying for these middling FAs always has been dumb. Those contracts almost never work out.

I don’t get why it took the execs so long to figure that out.

It’s why organizational depth is so important. A middling FA is going to get 8-15M a year. You should be able to get middling FA production from your minor leaguers.

You shouldn’t have to pay the Tommy Hunters of the world 2/17. That guy should be in your minor leagues.

It’s just smart baseball and the players union has to get used to it. It’s not collusion or anything else that they want to make up. They have just gotten smarter.

Hard to argue with any of this.

 

But you're saying the O's have a 4ish WAR Middle Infielder waiting around in the minors to replace Villar?


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#32 BSLRobShields

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 11:31 AM

Hard to argue with any of this.

But you're saying the O's have a 4ish WAR Middle Infielder waiting around in the minors to replace Villar?


No..I was referring to the Syzmborski tweets I posted the link too.

I had an issue giving up Villar for nothing. That was a pure greed move. No other motive than that.
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#33 Mike B

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 11:34 AM

At least you got something.

This is basically a salary dump but it’s better than nothing.

I guess it may be, but it may take 3 years to find out.


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#34 BSLRobShields

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 11:38 AM

I guess it may be, but it may take 3 years to find out.


That’s fine.
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#35 Mackus

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 11:38 AM

I guess it may be, but it may take 3 years to find out.

 

It won't take 3 years to find out if they sign a competent MLB player for the middle infield in 2020.  That's all they need to do.  Villar versus say Jose Iglesias (if he wasn't apparently an asshole) really is of no consequence.  

 

This trade or non-tendering Villar is the exact same if they don't replace him with someone passable and instead roll with this year's version of Richie Martin.  That would be inexcusable even if the guy they got for Villar was some top-10 prospect.  Just as trading Mancini is completely fine as long as they get a decent enough return and if they don't have any glaringly unacceptable options playing everyday in 2020 at one of the spots Mancini could have filled (1B/COF/DH).

 

They got an acceptable return for Villar, IMO, even though it's not much.  He didn't have much value.  So they've met one of the criteria.  Remains to be seen if they will sign or otherwise acquire an everyday middle infield option that isn't putrid.  That's the second half thing that needs to be met, and if it's not, then this trade of Villar should be viewed just as harshly as non-tendering him with no replacement.



#36 Mackus

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 11:40 AM

I had an issue giving up Villar for nothing. That was a pure greed move. No other motive than that.

 

They did just give him up for as close as possible to nothing as you can get without actually being someone with literally zero hope. 



#37 Mike B

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 11:59 AM

It won't take 3 years to find out if they sign a competent MLB player for the middle infield in 2020.  That's all they need to do.  Villar versus say Jose Iglesias (if he wasn't apparently an asshole) really is of no consequence.  

 

This trade or non-tendering Villar is the exact same if they don't replace him with someone passable and instead roll with this year's version of Richie Martin.  That would be inexcusable even if the guy they got for Villar was some top-10 prospect.  Just as trading Mancini is completely fine as long as they get a decent enough return and if they don't have any glaringly unacceptable options playing everyday in 2020 at one of the spots Mancini could have filled (1B/COF/DH).

 

They got an acceptable return for Villar, IMO, even though it's not much.  He didn't have much value.  So they've met one of the criteria.  Remains to be seen if they will sign or otherwise acquire an everyday middle infield option that isn't putrid.  That's the second half thing that needs to be met, and if it's not, then this trade of Villar should be viewed just as harshly as non-tendering him with no replacement.

I do not agree that Villar had no value.  I do not know a thing about Easton Lucas, so I am not going to act as if I do, but given that he is in low A, it seems like at best, he is 3 years away.

 

As far as who we sign, if you read Elias comments, it seems like he is saying we will be in the market for minor league free agents.

 

FWIW, I think Elias will eventually get it turned around, but I am never going to be in favor of a team tanking a season(s).  I know, the Orioles team is not tanking, but the front office has made it known in its actions, that wins do not matter.  I do not find 50 wins a year acceptable, and the only way I can show that is to not spend on a minor league product.


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#38 Mackus

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 12:12 PM

I do not agree that Villar had no value.  I do not know a thing about Easton Lucas, so I am not going to act as if I do, but given that he is in low A, it seems like at best, he is 3 years away.

 

Villar had very little value.  This move can be judged nearly immediately.  If we sign or acquire someone for 2020 who is a real MLB player, that is a sufficient replacement for Villar and the sequence is fine.  If we don't, it is not.

 

The guy we got back for him is utterly irrelevant to the conversation.  He's next to nothing.  He's not a complete non-prospect, but he's a fringe top-30 guy.  If he becomes something solid but we didn't replace Villar in 2020, it's still an unacceptable move.  If he never reaches the majors but we signed a legit middle infielder to help try and make us not as painfully embarrassing in 2020, then it was a fine move.  Lucas' development is ancillary to the decision of who the SS is on the 2020 Orioles.

 

The exact people are irrelevant to this conversation.  We need one MLB capable middle infielder.  We had Villar for that spot for about $8-10M or so.  That was an acceptable solution.  Now we have nobody.  There is still lots of time until the season starts and lots of capable MLB middle infielders.  Whether the guy we end up with is a little bit better or a little bit worse, or a little bit cheaper or a little bit more expensive, than Villar does not matter.  It just matters that he's real, and not Richie Martin or some other similar, horrible alternative that would be lucky to be above replacement level.



#39 Mike B

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 12:34 PM

Villar had very little value.  This move can be judged nearly immediately.  If we sign or acquire someone for 2020 who is a real MLB player, that is a sufficient replacement for Villar and the sequence is fine.  If we don't, it is not.

 

The guy we got back for him is utterly irrelevant to the conversation.  He's next to nothing.  He's not a complete non-prospect, but he's a fringe top-30 guy.  If he becomes something solid but we didn't replace Villar in 2020, it's still an unacceptable move.  If he never reaches the majors but we signed a legit middle infielder to help try and make us not as painfully embarrassing in 2020, then it was a fine move.  Lucas' development is ancillary to the decision of who the SS is on the 2020 Orioles.

 

The exact people are irrelevant to this conversation.  We need one MLB capable middle infielder.  We had Villar for that spot for about $8-10M or so.  That was an acceptable solution.  Now we have nobody.  There is still lots of time until the season starts and lots of capable MLB middle infielders.  Whether the guy we end up with is a little bit better or a little bit worse, or a little bit cheaper or a little bit more expensive, than Villar does not matter.  It just matters that he's real, and not Richie Martin or some other similar, horrible alternative that would be lucky to be above replacement level.

Again, I do not agree that Villar had no value.  He certainly had value to the Orioles.  IMO, at worst, he was our second best position player.  IMO, by making it pretty obvious 2 or 3 months ago, we limited any trade return.

I will be happy to say I am wrong, but I will be shocked if we sign a similar value infielder.   The Orioles feed Roch information, and all we hear in minor league contract type.


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#40 Mackus

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 12:46 PM

Again, I do not agree that Villar had no value.  He certainly had value to the Orioles.  IMO, at worst, he was our second best position player.  IMO, by making it pretty obvious 2 or 3 months ago, we limited any trade return.

I will be happy to say I am wrong, but I will be shocked if we sign a similar value infielder.   The Orioles feed Roch information, and all we hear in minor league contract type.

 

I am not saying we will sign a similar level player.  I don't expect they will.  Just saying that many are available.  Villar had a real good season but I think assuming that level is his baseline is wrong.  He's just a guy.   

 

If we don't end up with another capable guy, then it doesn't really matter what we traded him for, the deal was a bad idea and we should've just kept him.

 

But having Villar be the SS is not important.  Having a real SS is important.  They had one and they let him go to save money.  Now they need to find one.  A AAAA bum is not acceptable to me.






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