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BSL: Lamar. MVP. Inside the Numbers


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#41 Mackus

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 07:43 PM

Lamar is good enough that we can win the Super Bowl with him. That's all you can ask for. If he's even better than that, a perennial MVP candidate like he's performing this year, then the goal gets easier to achieve.

I think we are at least a year ahead of where even the most optimistic Lamar believer from day 1 would have said we would be. Going to be able to absolutely load up on the cap the next two years to add talent elsewhere while Lamar plays for effectively nothing against the cap. Even the next year or two after that his hits can be modest before he gets into the 2nd year of his extension.

The Ravens championship window is wide open with Lamar at QB.
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#42 BSLRobShields

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 07:45 PM

It's called moving the goalposts. Constantly saying he needs to improve is just creating a double standard so that you don't have to acknowledge what he's already accomplished. Those who gave him no chance and said he was a mistake know who they are. All of this is just cover up for not admitting that they were wrong.


Show me where those of us who didn’t have confidence in him being a great passer haven’t acknowledged how well he is doing?
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#43 BSLRobShields

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 07:46 PM

Do you understand what this sentence means?

You are sitting here saying he’s not a finished product.

When we say, he needs to be a better passer, that means we don’t think he’s a finished product either.

You are literally arguing against a statement you made yourself.

So, if you also think he needs to improve, why are you crying about this?


Btw, I like how you ignored this question. Not that I expected you to actually answer it since it kills your argument.
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#44 Slidemaster

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 07:48 PM

You aren’t following the conversation because if you are, you wouldn’t have posted this.

FWIW, I agree with everything you are saying here but again, it has nothing to do with what the discussion is actually about here.

You believe he still needs to improve as a pocket passer. I saw it. I followed it. I bet Lamar Jackson believes that he does too. That's why he's special.

My question is, why even bring it up? The kid is lighting up the NFL and changing the way people evaluate the QB position. He improved dramatically from last year, when he was one of the worst passers in the league, to where he is at the very least above average, and probably should be considered closer to "good."

In the wake of such a tremendous leap at 22 years old with less than a full season of experience under his belt when he got to work in the offseason, what more do you want?
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#45 Slidemaster

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 07:51 PM


Show me where those of us who didn’t have confidence in him being a great passer haven’t acknowledged how well he is doing?


Honestly I think it's the way the acknowledgement is being given. Compliments ring hollow when they're followed by qualifications and "buts."
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#46 Slidemaster

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 07:53 PM

It's called moving the goalposts. Constantly saying he needs to improve is just creating a double standard so that you don't have to acknowledge what he's already accomplished. Those who gave him no chance and said he was a mistake know who they are. All of this is just cover up for not admitting that they were wrong.

I just don't get it. Everyone said he needed to improve. He did. Dramatically. As in top 10ish in the league dramatically.

And the response is "well he needs to uh...improve more."

Jesus, do you remember what Manning looked like early on? Or Brees? Rodgers wasn't even playing in his second season if I remember correctly. Is the standard now that we need 22 year old Jackson to resemble 28 year old Peyton Manning before we are satisfied?

#47 BSLRobShields

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 07:53 PM

You believe he still needs to improve as a pocket passer. I saw it. I followed it. I bet Lamar Jackson believes that he does too. That's why he's special.

My question is, why even bring it up? The kid is lighting up the NFL and changing the way people evaluate the QB position. He improved dramatically from last year, when he was one of the worst passers in the league, to where he is at the very least above average, and probably should be considered closer to "good."

In the wake of such a tremendous leap at 22 years old with less than a full season of experience under his belt when he got to work in the offseason, what more do you want?


No, you still aren’t following the conversation.
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#48 Slidemaster

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 07:54 PM


No, you still aren’t following the conversation.


Hokay then. It's probably pointless to even try. You argue for arguing's sake.
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#49 Slidemaster

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 07:56 PM

So you are fine with Lamar never being better as a passer than he is right now?

You don’t think he needs to improve? You believe he is as good a passing QB as there is in the league?

I just want to quote this for humor's sake though. Talk about a straw man argument.

"People think Lamar needs to be a better passer but the numbers say he's been very good."

"SO YOURE FINE WITH HIM NEVER IMPROVING AND HE'S AS GOOD AS THERE IS IN THE NFL HUH?"

Puh-lease.

#50 85Knight

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 07:58 PM

You believe he still needs to improve as a pocket passer. I saw it. I followed it. I bet Lamar Jackson believes that he does too. That's why he's special.

My question is, why even bring it up? The kid is lighting up the NFL and changing the way people evaluate the QB position. He improved dramatically from last year, when he was one of the worst passers in the league, to where he is at the very least above average, and probably should be considered closer to "good."

In the wake of such a tremendous leap at 22 years old with less than a full season of experience under his belt when he got to work in the offseason, what more do you want?


Bringing it up detracts from what he's already accomplished. If Lamar wins the MVP or the Ravens win the Super Bowl his detractors will say I bet he can't do it again. He's just a one year wonder. Trust me it's coming.

#51 Slidemaster

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 07:59 PM

Bringing it up detracts from what he's already accomplished. If Lamar wins the MVP or the Ravens win the Super Bowl his detractors will say I bet he can't do it again. He's just a one year wonder. Trust me it's coming.

I know it is. I've been thinking that for a while.

It leaves them an out to say "See I told you so."

If Lamar Jackson wins a superbowl and retires the next day, he still will have been the right player to pick at the right time. And he's not going to retire.

#52 85Knight

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 08:01 PM

I just want to quote this for humor's sake though. Talk about a straw man argument.

"People think Lamar needs to be a better passer but the numbers say he's been very good."

"SO YOURE FINE WITH HIM NEVER IMPROVING AND HE'S AS GOOD AS THERE IS IN THE NFL HUH?"

Puh-lease.


He thinks I'm stupid enough to fall for him twisting my words. LOL

#53 BSLRobShields

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 08:02 PM

I just want to quote this for humor's sake though. Talk about a straw man argument.

"People think Lamar needs to be a better passer but the numbers say he's been very good."

"SO YOURE FINE WITH HIM NEVER IMPROVING AND HE'S AS GOOD AS THERE IS IN THE NFL HUH?"

Puh-lease.


Yea, you continue to not get it.

That is a question to 85Knight who is mocking people because we think he needs to improve.

I am asking him those questions.
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#54 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 08:04 PM

Re: Moving the Goal Posts

They should move. Even those of us who wanted the Ravens to draft Jackson, wrote numerous posts about the Ravens being able to win a lot with him on his initial contract, were excited to have him as the QB...we weren't touting him as an MVP candidate in Year 2.

He's raised the bar, so the goal posts do move.

He's the best player on the team, and the Ravens near-term future is tied to him. He's doing everything and pulling a largely uninspiring team with him...but for as much as he's doing right now, in years going forward we'll be asking for other refinements in his game.

Given his age, work ethic, and desire...it's fun to think that he might have an even higher ceiling as his experience grows.

#55 85Knight

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 08:11 PM

Re: Moving the Goal Posts

They should move. Even those of us who wanted the Ravens to draft Jackson, wrote numerous posts about the Ravens being able to win a lot with him on his initial contract, were excited to have him as the QB...we weren't touting him as an MVP candidate in Year 2.

He's raised the bar, so the goal posts do move.

He's the best player on the team, and the Ravens near-term future is tied to him. He's doing everything and pulling a largely uninspiring team with him...but for as much as he's doing right now, in years going forward we'll be asking for other refinements in his game.

Given his age, work ethic, and desire...it's fun to think that he might have an even higher ceiling as his experience grows.


This is a completely different argument. Supporters and detractors can say the same thing and it has 2 different meanings. It's not always what you say but how you say it and most on this board have hundreds of posts that back up where they stand.

If you thought Lamar was a mistake in the first place and a bad draft pick saying he still needs to improve is much different from what you're saying.

#56 Mackus

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 08:12 PM

I do not think Lamar needs to improve.

I expect him to, or at least to avoid bad games more frequently in the future than he has currently (very few bad games, but he's had one or two). But he doesn't need to.

Team can win it all with him playing like he has currently, even before the recent great games.
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#57 Slidemaster

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 08:13 PM

Re: Moving the Goal Posts

They should move. Even those of us who wanted the Ravens to draft Jackson, wrote numerous posts about the Ravens being able to win a lot with him on his initial contract, were excited to have him as the QB...we weren't touting him as an MVP candidate in Year 2.

He's raised the bar, so the goal posts do move.

He's the best player on the team, and the Ravens near-term future is tied to him. He's doing everything and pulling a largely uninspiring team with him...but for as much as he's doing right now, in years going forward we'll be asking for other refinements in his game.

Given his age, work ethic, and desire...it's fun to think that he might have an even higher ceiling as his experience grows.


I think what is irritating to me is moving the goalposts regarding whether he's good enough.

Sure, refinements should be expected, but we have to also acknowledge that even if he did stop his development right this second, he improved enough to be a great player. Not good. Great. When you qualify that with a "well he still needs to get better," it makes it sound like he never even achieved the first goal of becoming a good passer.

It's like if you tell your kid who is bad at math that he needs to go improve, and then his next report card his math grade jumps from a D to a B+, your reply should be congratulatory and satisfied, not asking him why he isn't getting straight A+ yet.

#58 Slidemaster

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 08:16 PM

He thinks I'm stupid enough to fall for him twisting my words. LOL


Ironic, coming from someone who pitched an absolute fit a little while ago about other posters not quoting EVERY WORD of his verbatim when referencing his opinions. Double standards ahoy!

#59 The Epic

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 08:16 PM

Lol...you could have chosen so many athletes for this and you pick that guy? :)

 

Well, because he actually GOT injured and we see what happened.



#60 BSLRobShields

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 08:24 PM

This is a completely different argument. Supporters and detractors can say the same thing and it has 2 different meanings. It's not always what you say but how you say it and most on this board have hundreds of posts that back up where they stand.

If you thought Lamar was a mistake in the first place and a bad draft pick saying he still needs to improve is much different from what you're saying.


Has anyone in here said Lamar was a mistake in the first place?

I’m really not sure if that has been said or not.
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