Photo

Monuments, Statues, More


  • Please log in to reply
217 replies to this topic

#41 BSLRobShields

BSLRobShields

    BSL Analyst

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 90,709 posts
  • LocationBaltimore

Posted 17 August 2017 - 09:43 AM

I know you're mostly joking (although being serious about the country being PC) but you can't see people being offended by statutes that represent perhaps the worst time in our country's history?

And then comparing that to a baseball player who liked to drink? Seems odd.

And, believe me, I am far from someone who is easily offended by stuff.

Few points;

1). I have no issue with some people(particularly African Americans) being upset about confederate statues. They have a right to be offended.

2). My point about the other 2 statues wasn't to compare the two situations but just the general point that people are going to find offense to everything. It's more of a general point about how annoying this country has become.


I also have an issue with all these protests and how they are being portrayed and handled but not getting into that at all.
@BSLRobShields

#42 Pedro Cerrano

Pedro Cerrano

    SportsGuy's Muse

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,313 posts
  • LocationEllicott City, MD

Posted 17 August 2017 - 09:51 AM

Few points;

1). I have no issue with some people(particularly African Americans) being upset about confederate statues. They have a right to be offended.

2). My point about the other 2 statues wasn't to compare the two situations but just the general point that people are going to find offense to everything. It's more of a general point about how annoying this country has become.


I also have an issue with all these protests and how they are being portrayed and handled but not getting into that at all.

 

This is all fair. 


There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

"Now OPS sucks.  Got it."

"Making his own olive brine is peak Mackus."

"I'm too hungover to watch a loss." - McNulty

@bopper33


#43 The Epic

The Epic

    ^^ That's my name. Don't wear it out.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,857 posts
  • LocationGlyndon, MD

Posted 17 August 2017 - 09:51 AM

1). I have no issue with some people(particularly African Americans) being upset about confederate statues. They have a right to be offended.

2). My point about the other 2 statues wasn't to compare the two situations but just the general point that people are going to find offense to everything. It's more of a general point about how annoying this country has become.
 

 

Yeah, I think talking about Charlottesville here is an absolute recipe for disaster. I think we're having good discussion here.

 

But about the statues, let me reiterate two things:

 

Black people have been yelling about these statues for a while. A -while-. Yes, it just became A Thing again, but really it's mainly because white people joined in the anger. Sad, but true. That's the same thing that happened with the confederate flag. Suddenly, white people joined in the outrage, and it wasn't long after that. People knock SJWs and allies and all, but...really, it's important. 

 

Second, this took barely any time and effort. This was such an easy win in every way that it makes total sense to do. 


  • mweb08 and McNulty like this

#44 BSLRobShields

BSLRobShields

    BSL Analyst

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 90,709 posts
  • LocationBaltimore

Posted 17 August 2017 - 09:59 AM

Antoine, it is pathetic that the cause wasn't recognized before. Not going to argue with you there.

I haven't looked enough into things to say I agree with tearing them down or not.

I am not sure I agree with tearing them down just because of slavery(again, that may be enough after more research, i just don't know).

To me, an example of what I mean is Lance Armstrong. He was an asshole to so many...but he was also an inspiration to so many and raised so much money for cancer. So, if a statue had been erected of him before everything finally came out, should that be torn down because he did cheat and he treated people poorly or should he still be recognized for everything else he did?

Again, not on the same level as what we are discussing but I'm sure you get my point. That's why I would want to be more informed about the entirety of the person, as opposed to a singular belief.
@BSLRobShields

#45 Nigel Tufnel

Nigel Tufnel

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,857 posts

Posted 17 August 2017 - 10:11 AM

I think OJ Simpson would be an example.  I actually don't know if there were any statues of him (except for the one that Flava Flav apparently owns) but if there had been one at USC, I'm assuming it would have come down.  Or Joe Paterno, although I can't keep track of that one.  Did PSU put it back up?  And I'm assuming that Cleveland probably took down any Art Modell statues that happened to be lying around.  I think all of these things would be justified.

 

The thing to remember about the Confederate monuments is that a lot of them were put up in the 20th century, specifically as a screw you to African Americans.  For example, the Lee-Jackson monument in Baltimore went up in 1948.  1948!

 

I'm a little more conflicted on Taney, since I think (although I might be wrong) that the local monuments of him were meant to celebrate a Maryland kid making it all the way to Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.  But the Dred Scott decision is kind of problematic - it's his version of a double murder, or enabling a child molester.


  • mweb08 likes this

#46 DJ MC

DJ MC

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,680 posts
  • LocationBeautiful Bel Air, MD

Posted 17 August 2017 - 10:24 AM

I think OJ Simpson would be an example.  I actually don't know if there were any statues of him (except for the one that Flava Flav apparently owns) but if there had been one at USC, I'm assuming it would have come down.  Or Joe Paterno, although I can't keep track of that one.  Did PSU put it back up?  And I'm assuming that Cleveland probably took down any Art Modell statues that happened to be lying around.  I think all of these things would be justified.

 

The thing to remember about the Confederate monuments is that a lot of them were put up in the 20th century, specifically as a screw you to African Americans.  For example, the Lee-Jackson monument in Baltimore went up in 1948.  1948!

 

I'm a little more conflicted on Taney, since I think (although I might be wrong) that the local monuments of him were meant to celebrate a Maryland kid making it all the way to Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.  But the Dred Scott decision is kind of problematic - it's his version of a double murder, or enabling a child molester.

 

The Paterno statue is a pretty good comparison to what is going on here. If it were up to a lot, if not the majority, of Penn State fans, that statue would be in place. Many of those fans are in denial about his role in what happened up there, many of them are in the camp of "You can't rewrite history, and he did win all of those games and championships", and many of them just simply don't care about the kids as long as he won those games. So if its the Penn State administrators looking out for the image of the university in the eyes of the country versus the general fanbase wanting the statue of their hero, who should win out?


@DJ_McCann

#47 BSLRobShields

BSLRobShields

    BSL Analyst

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 90,709 posts
  • LocationBaltimore

Posted 17 August 2017 - 10:35 AM

The Paterno statue is a pretty good comparison to what is going on here. If it were up to a lot, if not the majority, of Penn State fans, that statue would be in place. Many of those fans are in denial about his role in what happened up there, many of them are in the camp of "You can't rewrite history, and he did win all of those games and championships", and many of them just simply don't care about the kids as long as he won those games. So if its the Penn State administrators looking out for the image of the university in the eyes of the country versus the general fanbase wanting the statue of their hero, who should win out?


It is a good debate.

How much should the idea that it's a state vs private institution play into things as well?
@BSLRobShields

#48 The Epic

The Epic

    ^^ That's my name. Don't wear it out.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,857 posts
  • LocationGlyndon, MD

Posted 17 August 2017 - 11:10 AM

Simple question. 

 

If we found out that one of the six statues at OPACY...any one...was, say, a pedophile, would you want his statue to stay up?



#49 BSLChrisStoner

BSLChrisStoner

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 120,057 posts

Posted 17 August 2017 - 11:15 AM

My comments here might light gasoline on a fire... so my apologies for that. This is one of those odd situations I find myself in as the owner of the site.

I've expressed that I don't want social / political discussion here, but like anyone else, I'm biased with my own opinions.
When I see discussion existing, it's hard for me to avoid giving my thoughts.

Admittedly, what I should be doing here is walking away, and asking for people to get this thread back on track.
I recognize that I'm not following what I know I should be doing.


Too many in the South are fighting a war they lost 152 years ago. (Certainly not saying racism is limited to the South.)

It's simply un-American to be waiving Confederate flags, and celebrating Confederate figures. Not only for the aspect of slavery; but for the obvious fact they tried to leave the US.

Can't say you 'love America', while simultaneously celebrating a flag and figures that represented those trying to leave.

Statues honoring them is disgusting, and I think it's easy decision to remove them from public spaces.

 

Here is where I think things get a bit difficult.

One of the rights that we have as Americans that should be celebrated is the right to peaceful protest. That right doesn't just exist for causes we believe in.

I can hate it, but if a bunch of asshole clowns want to peacefully protest for 'white power'... it's disgusting, but it's their right. When those protests turn violent, that's when they have to be shutdown.

It can be their right to protest, but if they are going to walk chanting slurs and degrading others...  do what's happening. Out them. Let people know who they are.

These assholes giving Nazi salutes, waiving the Confederate flag, chanting slurs...  are the absolute dregs of society. They are the complete opposite of what America is supposed to stand for.  They should be called out by everyone for being the pathetic clowns they are.

 

If one of those aholes wants to put up a Jefferson Davis statue on private grounds somewhere, whatever... that's their right.

Statues in public parks honoring those that didn't want to be part of America? Yeah, easy decision to tear down.

 

 

Equating that to Lewis, and Ruth is a great example of Whataboutism:
https://en.wikipedia...ki/Whataboutism

 

I wish the world was more PC.  Too many assholes with a microphone / outlet for loudly expressing their opinions imo.

I'd like to know less about what people think about everything.


  • mweb08, Pedro Cerrano and Nigel Tufnel like this

#50 BSLRobShields

BSLRobShields

    BSL Analyst

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 90,709 posts
  • LocationBaltimore

Posted 17 August 2017 - 11:17 AM

Simple question. 
 
If we found out that one of the six statues at OPACY...any one...was, say, a pedophile, would you want his statue to stay up?


Well PA has been screwing us for years and i don't ask for OPACY to be torn down!
  • The Epic and DJ MC like this
@BSLRobShields

#51 The Epic

The Epic

    ^^ That's my name. Don't wear it out.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,857 posts
  • LocationGlyndon, MD

Posted 17 August 2017 - 11:33 AM

My comments here might light gasoline on a fire... so my apologies for that. This is one of those odd situations I find myself in as the owner of the site.

I've expressed that I don't want social / political discussion here, but like anyone else, I'm biased with my own opinions.
When I see discussion existing, it's hard for me to avoid giving my thoughts.

 

I'll be responding shortly, but I think this thread is entirely relevant and on-topic. And I thank you for keeping it open for this topic, for however long you do. 

 

Again, I think this has been good conversation. 



#52 The Epic

The Epic

    ^^ That's my name. Don't wear it out.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,857 posts
  • LocationGlyndon, MD

Posted 17 August 2017 - 11:50 AM

I wish the world was more PC.  Too many assholes with a microphone / outlet for loudly expressing their opinions imo.


I'd like to know less about what people think about everything.

 

I agree with everything you said except this last statement. I’m sorry, but I absolutely want to know what people think and believe. Get that bigotry right out there where I can see it.

 

The Nazis that marched out there are awful human beings, the whole lot of them. I don’t think that’s being debated here (if yall feel otherwise, by all means, let us know), but what’s alarming is that there’s a huge amount of people that suddenly care about these statues being in plain view of people that those statues saw as property. Just…property. Worth less than the copper they’re currently made of. How is this not racist trolling? “Just a quick reminder that I thought that your ancestors were less than human. And they glorify me. Enjoy.”

 

Like…look at it this way. Let’s say that these statues didn’t exist, ever (and like Mike said, we can have a long discussion on why they actually exist). If a group of people suddenly came out of the blue and requested a Robert E. Lee statue, or a Taney statue, what would be their justification? Why would they care? Why would they be received differently than the person that wanted a White Student Union at Towson?  


  • mweb08 likes this

#53 BSLRobShields

BSLRobShields

    BSL Analyst

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 90,709 posts
  • LocationBaltimore

Posted 17 August 2017 - 11:54 AM

Chris, you own and operate a message board...a board that gives people an outlet to express their views and yet you are complaining about that very thing.

Do you think that because your message board is mostly about sports, that it is different?

I know this is partly why you don't want social issues on here but there are plenty of topics discussed on here that could offend people or discussed in a way that goes back to what you are complaining about.

I think people having a voice is a good thing. The problem is, no one wants to look at two sides of the coin. No one cares about the other sides opinion and things get heated quickly.
@BSLRobShields

#54 BSLChrisStoner

BSLChrisStoner

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 120,057 posts

Posted 17 August 2017 - 12:12 PM

Chris, you own and operate a message board...a board that gives people an outlet to express their views and yet you are complaining about that very thing.

Do you think that because your message board is mostly about sports, that it is different?

I know this is partly why you don't want social issues on here but there are plenty of topics discussed on here that could offend people or discussed in a way that goes back to what you are complaining about.

I think people having a voice is a good thing. The problem is, no one wants to look at two sides of the coin. No one cares about the other sides opinion and things get heated quickly.

 

It's knowing the space.  The discussions should take place.  They don't need to happen here.

This place imo should be an escape from what is going on. 

Right now, it's hard for anywhere to be an escape.  To me, there are plenty of other areas you can go to discuss these issues.



#55 BSLChrisStoner

BSLChrisStoner

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 120,057 posts

Posted 17 August 2017 - 12:22 PM

I agree with everything you said except this last statement. I’m sorry, but I absolutely want to know what people think and believe. Get that bigotry right out there where I can see it.


I can respect the idea of bringing bigotry out to light of day...  letting people's opinions etc be clear.  That's one benefit of living today, particularly in a social world. You can get a good indication of where people stand on everything.

There are places at-times I like to check in, and see what is being said by others. 

 

 

But overall I dislike knowing what people have to think about everything. That includes family and friends, even when I agree with them.



#56 mweb08

mweb08

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 26,551 posts
  • LocationRidgely's Delight

Posted 17 August 2017 - 12:29 PM

This is like the Paterno statue in that many still want it up like DJ said. However, they're not similar in that the confederate statues were erected knowing that they were traitors to the United States, and their reason was to preserve slavery. Furthermore, they weren't just erected while knowing that, they're were largely erected because of that.
  • Ricker Says likes this

#57 mweb08

mweb08

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 26,551 posts
  • LocationRidgely's Delight

Posted 17 August 2017 - 01:05 PM

In case you missed it, the mayor of New Orleans gave an incredible speech on why his administration removed the statues.

Text:
https://mobile.nytim...transcript.html

Video:
https://youtu.be/t0jQTHis3f4
  • Ricker Says, NewMarketSean and Nigel Tufnel like this

#58 The Epic

The Epic

    ^^ That's my name. Don't wear it out.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,857 posts
  • LocationGlyndon, MD

Posted 17 August 2017 - 01:14 PM

But overall I dislike knowing what people have to think about everything. That includes family and friends, even when I agree with them.

 

I think that's fair. I feel the opposite on my end, but that's fair. 

 

I like knowing, flat-out, where I stand.



#59 Cisc-O's

Cisc-O's

    Back by no demand

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,063 posts
  • LocationFresh Prince of .......

Posted 17 August 2017 - 01:25 PM

This is like the Paterno statue in that many still want it up like DJ said. However, they're not similar in that the confederate statues were erected knowing that they were traitors to the United States, and their reason was to preserve slavery. Furthermore, they weren't just erected while knowing that, they're were largely erected because of that.

It is funny how Rob (I do to) hates participation trophies and thinks its a new millennial thing but the millennials are the ones trying to take away participation trophies :).   I also think the statues are more like beacons on a way of life, defeated but not gone.  Not in power but still here and have enough sway.  I think the JoePA thing is similar but again it was on private property.  Where as these monuments are maintained and up keep by tax dollars.  Which is insane to me.

 

Two things in here people need to think about that bothers me.  This is not erasing history and this is not about being politically correct.  This is about the North winning a war in 1865 and the politicians that were local shoving it in the North's face of erecting these monuments to put people in their places and remind people that these feelings are not over with.  If you do not think that is fucked up I do not know what to tell you. 

 

Playing a bit of Devils advocate the civil war was not looked at as the Nazi's of Germany, or the Saddam's of the war and to white people who were in power as a Gentlemen's war.  A complete and utter breakdown of the way of life was not going to happen because we wanted them to be happy in the union.  What is good for 1865 is not good for now and has never been good for black people in America.


  • mweb08 likes this
<p>I am pretty sure Shack is thinking of PBR.

#60 NewMarketSean

NewMarketSean

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,470 posts

Posted 17 August 2017 - 01:28 PM

In case you missed it, the mayor of New Orleans gave an incredible speech on why his administration removed the statues.

Text:
https://mobile.nytim...transcript.html

Video:
https://youtu.be/t0jQTHis3f4

Brilliant.


I never had friends later on like the ones I had when I was twelve. Jesus, does anyone?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Partners