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#41 DuffMan

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 05:38 AM

Hogan just turned heel with this decision.



#42 NewMarketSean

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 08:31 AM

It kills me how anti-transit Maryland, and Baltimore, are. From the government down to the citizens.

 

I'd bet more than half of Baltimore residents don't know there is a subway in Baltimore. With stations and everything!

 

The light rail is referred to as the "loot rail" or the "light snail", which is actually pretty deserving of the name.

 

There is little to no TOD (Transit Oriented Development) in the city. Nothing has propped up around light rail or metro stations. In fact, the opposite have happened -- look at Owings Mills mall and Howard Street as prime examples.

 

It's so odd considering you've got a world class metro system just 30 miles down the road, which has tons of TOD.

 

It's decisions like this that will hold Baltimore back from advancing. If we were going to get an arena or some BRT as a consolation prize, I'd be more OK with it. But this city will get nothing, DC suburbs will get a new line, and millions of dollars in studies will be wasted.


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#43 DuffMan

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 08:36 AM

It's BS that he would say spending a billion towards the tunnel portion is a big reason for not moving forward.  The tunnel was included in large part because of the feedback of the existing light rail and how slow it gets downtown.



#44 NewMarketSean

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 08:40 AM

It's BS that he would say spending a billion towards the tunnel portion is a big reason for not moving forward.  The tunnel was included in large part because of the feedback of the existing light rail and how slow it gets downtown.

 

I agree, but -- it would cost more than 1B to build a tunnel. Everyone knew that the cost of the RL was going to cost significantly more than what was estimated -- likely doubled.


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#45 KWebz

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 09:46 AM

Was there a big push from people in CC county to cancel this project?

#46 NewMarketSean

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 10:08 AM

Was there a big push from people in CC county to cancel this project?

 

Carroll County? I don't see why -- it wouldn't come close to CC.


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#47 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 10:15 AM

This will all be moot once we can buy jet packs.


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#48 DJ MC

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 08:37 PM

I've tried, but I just can't get angry over the end of the Red Line.

 

In a general sense, the fact that it won't go through sucks. This is a city that needs more and better mass-transit options, but so few people really care about it that there isn't enough political will. Ending the project also cuts the chances that any future project will succeed.

 

Specifically, though, the Red Line just doesn't seem worth getting angry over. It is too limited in scope, even with the expense. The current Metro Green Line is essentially a failure because, in the end, it doesn't really go anywhere. It simply goes from Owings Mills down the northwest side through downtown. 90% or more of the people in the region would literally never have a reason to use it. On the other hand, the Light Rail gets the use that it does (outside of Camden Yards events) because it extends well outside of the city in both directions.

 

The Red Line is much closer to the former than the latter. For it to be really worth building, it couldn't just go from Woodlawn to Canton; it would need to go from Columbia (or even just Ellicott City) to White Marsh or somewhere near 95 in the east. That way you have people coming from two directions to get into downtown, and anchor it on two major suburban economic centers. It would have been at an astronomical cost, but also the only way to get people over the idea of the "rob-and-ride" and willing to use it.

 

I would hope that Hogan's (and/or his advisers') thought process is similar to mine, and that a better plan might bring about a better result. But that's not really something that I can assume, and thus I find my opinion divided.


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#49 RShack

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 09:02 PM

I've tried, but I just can't get angry over the end of the Red Line.

 

In a general sense, the fact that it won't go through sucks. This is a city that needs more and better mass-transit options, but so few people really care about it that there isn't enough political will. Ending the project also cuts the chances that any future project will succeed.

 

Specifically, though, the Red Line just doesn't seem worth getting angry over. It is too limited in scope, even with the expense. The current Metro Green Line is essentially a failure because, in the end, it doesn't really go anywhere. It simply goes from Owings Mills down the northwest side through downtown. 90% or more of the people in the region would literally never have a reason to use it. On the other hand, the Light Rail gets the use that it does (outside of Camden Yards events) because it extends well outside of the city in both directions.

 

The Red Line is much closer to the former than the latter. For it to be really worth building, it couldn't just go from Woodlawn to Canton; it would need to go from Columbia (or even just Ellicott City) to White Marsh or somewhere near 95 in the east. That way you have people coming from two directions to get into downtown, and anchor it on two major suburban economic centers. It would have been at an astronomical cost, but also the only way to get people over the idea of the "rob-and-ride" and willing to use it.

 

I would hope that Hogan's (and/or his advisers') thought process is similar to mine, and that a better plan might bring about a better result. But that's not really something that I can assume, and thus I find my opinion divided.

 

So, what do you want them to do?


 "You say you've lost your faith, but that's not where its at.

  You have no faith to lose, and ya know it" - Bob Dylan


#50 DJ MC

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 09:13 PM

So, what do you want them to do?

 

I don't know. I realize there must be compromise, especially over cost, but if you compromise too much it makes the project not worthwhile.

 

It's kind of like, using the second bay crossing mentioned, building the bridge but not building any further infrastructure beyond the local roads already in place. You save money, but you're going to have more people jumping off the bridge than successfully crossing.


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#51 RShack

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 09:18 PM

I don't know. I realize there must be compromise, especially over cost, but if you compromise too much it makes the project not worthwhile.

 

It's kind of like, using the second bay crossing mentioned, building the bridge but not building any further infrastructure beyond the local roads already in place. You save money, but you're going to have more people jumping off the bridge than successfully crossing.

 

What I want is leadership... i.e.,

 

1.  Figure out what needs doing.

2.  Commit to that.

3.  Figure out how, not if...

 

That's what used to be pretty normal...


 "You say you've lost your faith, but that's not where its at.

  You have no faith to lose, and ya know it" - Bob Dylan


#52 DJ MC

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 09:47 PM

What I want is leadership... i.e.,

 

1.  Figure out what needs doing.

2.  Commit to that.

3.  Figure out how, not if...

 

That's what used to be pretty normal...

 

The closest thing to real leadership the city has had in 30 years is O'Malley. And I say that as someone who doesn't have a real issue with Rawlings-Blake. But even then there wasn't any real regional cooperation. I don't know if that has ever happened, or whether there is a real chance that it could in the non-distant future.


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#53 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 09:54 PM

The closest thing to real leadership the city has had in 30 years is O'Malley. And I say that as someone who doesn't have a real issue with Rawlings-Blake. But even then there wasn't any real regional cooperation. I don't know if that has ever happened, or whether there is a real chance that it could in the non-distant future.

 

And even with O'Malley it only felt like leadership for the first 2-3 years. After that it seemed like his aspirations got in the way, and he quickly became just another politician.



#54 RShack

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 10:09 PM

I saw that they are removing a line and many stops on the remaining lines on the Charm City Circulator. This makes me sad but I'm also unsure where the revenue for a free bus system is coming from. 

 

Things like that pay for themselves in ways that are fuzzy... gutting them is short-sighted...


 "You say you've lost your faith, but that's not where its at.

  You have no faith to lose, and ya know it" - Bob Dylan


#55 NewMarketSean

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Posted 27 June 2015 - 07:15 AM

CCC is funded by parking taxes. And if the lines aren't ridden enough they should be down away with. The RL basically duplicates what the QB #40 bus does now, and almost just as fast. As a compromise I'd like to see BRT for that line. It could be a state of the art system for a fraction of the cost of the RL. There's also a second tunnel that exists downtown at Charles Center. The RL didn't make use of it. It's just sitting there so any future line probably should make use of it but I think it runs N/S so it duplicates what the light rail does already.
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#56 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 01:51 PM

The Sun: Gov. Hogan unveils $135 million plan to improve Baltimore bus system

 

Basically, adding a few more buses, and a fancy rebranding calling it "CityLink", is probably all the Baltimore area can expect to replace the scuttled Red Line.

 

citylink-system-map-final*750xx8000-4500



#57 NewMarketSean

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 02:05 PM

The Sun: Gov. Hogan unveils $135 million plan to improve Baltimore bus system

 

Basically, adding a few more buses, and a fancy rebranding calling it "CityLink", is probably all the Baltimore area can expect to replace the scuttled Red Line.

 

It definitely doesn't replace the Red Line but I've read that the bus system was getting an overhaul regardless of whether the RL was built or not. So basically, Hogan gets to take credit for something that was planned all along.

 

That said, the city bus grid is a mess and this does simplify things. Plus, 10 min headways for these buses is great. Right now, they're 30 with 15 for the Quick Bus routes.

 

This is a small step forward, but at least it's a step forward.


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#58 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 02:13 PM

It definitely doesn't replace the Red Line but I've read that the bus system was getting an overhaul regardless of whether the RL was built or not. So basically, Hogan gets to take credit for something that was planned all along.

 

That said, the city bus grid is a mess and this does simplify things. Plus, 10 min headways for these buses is great. Right now, they're 30 with 15 for the Quick Bus routes.

 

This is a small step forward, but at least it's a step forward.

 

Pretty much. It's hard to get excited over something so relatively simple that could, and should, have been done long ago. Especially when it is painted up and presented as the great alternative to a long and highly anticipated rail project. It certainly doesn't put Baltimore anywhere near other east coast cities transit-wise. I'll be curious to see down the road if the new services actually improve things, and how much.



#59 NewMarketSean

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 02:16 PM

Pretty much. It's hard to get excited over something that could, and should, have been done long ago. Especially when it is painted up and presented as the great alternative to a long and highly anticipated rail project. It certainly doesn't put Baltimore anywhere near other east coast cities transit-wise. I'll be curious to see down the road if the new services actually improve things, and how much.

 

I was torn on the RL. I would have liked to see it happen but it was going to cost upwards of $3 billion -- maybe more -- and it still wasn't going to connect 2 already very different transit lines. Plus the wealthiest neighborhood it was going to run through didn't want it.

 

I've found that the bus is more convenient than the metro in other cities -- when it works. This is a step in that direction. The bus was always going to have a place in this city, RL or not, so there's no harm in trying to make it run better, because right now, it's a mess. Hopefully these changes bring about some reliability and convenience. Because the bus system sorely needed it.


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#60 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 02:27 PM

I was torn on the RL. I would have liked to see it happen but it was going to cost upwards of $3 billion -- maybe more -- and it still wasn't going to connect 2 already very different transit lines. Plus the wealthiest neighborhood it was going to run through didn't want it.

 

I've found that the bus is more convenient than the metro in other cities -- when it works. This is a step in that direction. The bus was always going to have a place in this city, RL or not, so there's no harm in trying to make it run better, because right now, it's a mess. Hopefully these changes bring about some reliability and convenience. Because the bus system sorely needed it.

 

I frequently use the transit system here in Portland (which is far better than Baltimore's). Buses will always have a place because they fill needs that rail cannot....they are much more flexible and cost-effective than building rail. That said, they continue to expand the rail system here (a new line opened just a month ago), and with mostly good results. For whatever reason, a lot of people tend to romanticize the idea of riding on rails, and thus you'll get people who do so once it is introduced to a new area who before ignored buses that took the same route. Also, development and property values usually see a significant boost around the rail stops, even before it is actually operational, just because of the intrinsic value.

 

It was touted that the Red Line might have done the same for some areas in West Baltimore....although having seen the neighborhoods around some Metro stops, which has been running since the 80's, I was always a bit skeptical of that part. I liked it because it simply provided a seemingly better alternative to get downtown from the western suburbs, filling in that hole in the highway system that has lingered since the I-70 extension was killed back in the early 70's.






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