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2019 Ravens General Talk


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#2441 DJ MC

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Posted 12 January 2020 - 11:21 PM

The 4th down attempt at mid field in the first half is the one that I think turned the game.  And I know they have been doing that and making it all year long.  I heard it during the broadcast, in the post game show, this morning.....yeah, yeah, yeah.  Nobody is going to convince me that all those successful coaches that basically reject going on 4th down at that point in favor of playing field position are wrong.  You are right when you say that it was just as bad as a turnover.  That directly led to 7 points for Tennessee and that's when you could see Tennessee gaining confidence and the Ravens starting to panic.  If the game plays out the same way without that short field, maybe the Ravens are only down 7-6 at half, and it would have never been more than a two score game. Maybe they wouldn't have felt they needed to abandon the run.  I've said all year that consistently going for it nearly anywhere on the field was going to cost them one day and I feel it did last night.  On the second one I would have taken the FG to cut it to 14-9, but at least that was deep in Tennessee territory.  The first attempt was just plain stupidity, imo.   

 

Considering:

 

1. Most coaches will literally follow the definition of insanity straight into the grave of their career

2. The data says that going for it in that situation will work out most of the time

3. It had worked all year

 

I'm going to go with the fact that they should have done it. Not doing it is essentially the same logic as keeping Zach Britton in the bullpen because you never use your closer in a tie game on the road.


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#2442 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 12 January 2020 - 11:24 PM

There will definitely be a significant story about Lamar in the playoffs next year. I think the Ravens will likely be really good again next year, but until he wins a postseason game that will be the story around him even if he has a MVP level season again next season. Even once he gets that first win, the story will remain until he wins a few.

It's a thing now, unfortunately.

Was with Joe here and many other QBs before him. I have no doubt Lamar is up to the task. He didnt play that poorly yesterday. Anyone who thinks he's a fluke or a choke artist will continue to look like a fool.
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#2443 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 12 January 2020 - 11:27 PM

Considering:

1. Most coaches will literally follow the definition of insanity straight into the grave of their career
2. The data says that going for it in that situation will work out most of the time
3. It had worked all year

I'm going to go with the fact that they should have done it. Not doing it is essentially the same logic as keeping Zach Britton in the bullpen because you never use your closer in a tie game on the road.

If Harbaugh had punted and taken the FG in those situatuons and Henry had continued to smash us he would've been roasted by people for coaching scared. Why would Baltimore not go for it on 4th and 1 twice when they were never stopped in that situation all year.
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#2444 DJ MC

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Posted 12 January 2020 - 11:37 PM

If Harbaugh had punted and taken the FG in those situatuons and Henry had continued to smash us he would've been roasted by people for coaching scared. Why would Baltimore not go for it on 4th and 1 twice when they were never stopped in that situation all year.

 

Exactly.


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#2445 mdrunning

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 12:34 AM

If Harbaugh had punted and taken the FG in those situatuons and Henry had continued to smash us he would've been roasted by people for coaching scared. Why would Baltimore not go for it on 4th and 1 twice when they were never stopped in that situation all year.

Because in virtually all of the previous instances they were ahead at the time?

 

Going for it on fourth down when you're not in field goal range is a signal that you don't have faith in your defense to come up with a stop. That may not be the definition of coaching scared, but it certainly suggests a certain level of circumspection.



#2446 cprenegade

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 12:57 AM

If Harbaugh had punted and taken the FG in those situatuons and Henry had continued to smash us he would've been roasted by people for coaching scared. Why would Baltimore not go for it on 4th and 1 twice when they were never stopped in that situation all year.

 

Because coaches can't coach based on what people will say.  And yes I am sure Harbuagh is feeling that way today, he can't coach with the feeling that people will roast him for going for it and not making it.  The data says they were never stopped in that situation all year, but the data can't tell you about the emotion of the game that is in front of you today.  That is something a coach needs to feel for himself.  The data can't tell you what a stop in that situation will do to how your team will play after that, and it can't tell you what that stop will do for the other team's confidence.  That is the human element of the game that great coaches are able to sense.  If it were as easy as plugging in the numbers and following the flowcharts you could simply plug every stat into a computer and let that make the decisions.  No need to even have a head coach.  The computer can call the game.  I think that would work about as well as the game without any announcers worked out years ago. 


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#2447 cprenegade

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 01:02 AM

If Harbaugh had punted and taken the FG in those situatuons and Henry had continued to smash us he would've been roasted by people for coaching scared. Why would Baltimore not go for it on 4th and 1 twice when they were never stopped in that situation all year.

 

You know the other thing is that if you pin Tennessee back inside the 20 maybe even if Henry does smash you, you have a lot more field to make a stop in.  Henry wasn't smashing the Raven's that early in the game.  If Tennessee gets pinned back at their 15 yard line and drives the length of the field to go up 14-0 then maybe it just isn't going to be the Raven's day.  Giving them a short field just made their job easier.  I respect your opinion and I can see that logic, I just don't agree with it.   But that is also hindsight knowing that it didn't work.  



#2448 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 01:15 AM

I do think there is an argument for punting on the first 4th down in our own territory. Im just noting that its a no win situation. Had we still lost the game, there wouldve been criticism of John for not going for it.

#2449 BSLRobShields

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 05:15 AM

Punting in their own territory would have been fine..as was going for it.

They absolutely should have gone for it on the 17.

It’s the play call that’s the issue.

Lamar has good size but he’s not huge and a QB sneak into the teeth of that defense, when you have one of the best and most efficient short yardage backs in football, made little sense to me.

I get that you only needed a football length for a first down and a QB sneak is high percentage but putting it in the hands of your bigger RB was the better move imo.
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#2450 Biggsy

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 06:48 AM

Punting in their own territory would have been fine..as was going for it.

They absolutely should have gone for it on the 17.

It’s the play call that’s the issue.

Lamar has good size but he’s not huge and a QB sneak into the teeth of that defense, when you have one of the best and most efficient short yardage backs in football, made little sense to me.

I get that you only needed a football length for a first down and a QB sneak is high percentage but putting it in the hands of your bigger RB was the better move imo.


Tennessee lined up and overloaded the A gap. If you run something to the outside, their was no one. Vrabel knew what was coming. He saw it all season. Roman and Co. were to arrogant to believe anyone could step up and stop it.

My biggest issue is that we had basically 3 weeks to come up with something new for the postseason. We didn't. Once again our coaches arrogantly ran into the postseason thinking this teams gameplan from the regular season was untouchable. They had no back up plan if someone came out and took away what worked all season... again. No different looks, no change of pace, nothing.
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#2451 DJ MC

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 08:49 AM

Going for it on fourth down when you're not in field goal range is a signal that you don't have faith in your defense to come up with a stop.

 

It's HAVING faith that your offense can get you the yardage you need to keep the drive alive. Especially early in the game when most of the things we now see having gone wrong in hindsight hadn't happened yet.

 

Because coaches can't coach based on what people will say.

 

Then why do you want him to do so?


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#2452 bmore_ken

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 09:00 AM

The 4th down attempt at mid field in the first half is the one that I think turned the game.  And I know they have been doing that and making it all year long.  I heard it during the broadcast, in the post game show, this morning.....yeah, yeah, yeah.  Nobody is going to convince me that all those successful coaches that basically reject going on 4th down at that point in favor of playing field position are wrong.  You are right when you say that it was just as bad as a turnover.  That directly led to 7 points for Tennessee and that's when you could see Tennessee gaining confidence and the Ravens starting to panic.  If the game plays out the same way without that short field, maybe the Ravens are only down 7-6 at half, and it would have never been more than a two score game. Maybe they wouldn't have felt they needed to abandon the run.  I've said all year that consistently going for it nearly anywhere on the field was going to cost them one day and I feel it did last night.  On the second one I would have taken the FG to cut it to 14-9, but at least that was deep in Tennessee territory.  The first attempt was just plain stupidity, imo.   


That first 4th down attempt was when I knew the game was over. I don't care what you did in the regular season. That early in the a playoff game,force the Titans to start in their own territory. Totally different game if that happens.



#2453 Ravens2006

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 09:02 AM

I'd have to re-watch it on GamePass, but my gut feelings from seeing it live (maybe bad perception)...

 

1) The Ravens emptied the backfield way too often.  Maybe I'm imagining that, but it sure seemed like the RBs split out wide a lot more than usual.  Part of what makes the "standard" Lamar offense so difficult to defend is the threat of him giving it to someone else too.  Take away the other backfield options, and you have a Lamar keep or a Lamar pass.  LBs and DEs don't have as many options to consider, and don't hesitate as much off the snap.  And this is NOT a pass-blocking All-Pro offensive line.  They need to beat on people, establish a tone, and gradually wear down a DL.  You could say the TEN DL dominated the BAL OL, but I think the Ravens coaching staff / play-calling helped create that result too.

 

2) Seth Roberts seemed to be targeted a lot.  Too much.  Not sure if coverages dictated that, but it felt like the ball was going his way a lot more than usual or expected.  Or recommended.

 

3) The Ravens did very little in the middle of the field, relative to most of the season.

 

4) The Titans have adopted the "bully" in-your-face mentality that a lot of past Ravens teams had.  At intros, the whole team sort of squeezed their way through all the flagholders and cheerleader lines to meet up on the Ravens shield and dance around on it.  You could see players digging their cleats in and trying to tear up some of the turf.  It was a pre-kickoff F.U. to the Ravens.  Not sure if that made the broadcast.  I really think had that first Ravens drive ended with a TD (after the defensive stop) instead of an INT and eventually 6 points the other way, the game would have taken a very different atmosphere.

 

5) Lamar had opportunities to pull it down and take off, and probably make some decent yardage, but uncharacteristically stayed in the pocket a little too long.  And it's weird for me to say that, because I want him to progress as a pocket passer.  :)

 

6) From the upper deck endzone, you could (or at least I felt like I could) just sense the attitude impact after the failed 4th-and-1 quickly turned in to a TD the other way.  That's a turnover near midfield / in Ravens territory.  With great frequency, teams that get a takeaway in the area will often try to go over the top on their very first play.  The Ravens somehow seemed to pay no attention to that possibility.  You can't let an 8th string WR get behind the defense like that, gotta have a safety playing center field.

 

7) Hitting a nobody WR like that on the long TD, Henry throwing a TD pass from the 3... the Titans brought more surprise to the table offensively than the Ravens did.  The Ravens coaching staff basically panicked after getting down 14-0 and all the things they normally do to REALLY keep a defense guessing went out the window.  They went more standard 4 and 5 wide, empty backfield... we're gonna try to throw, and it we don't, the only guy who's touching the ball is Lamar.  Just not enough variety to keep a defense on it's heels a bit, which means less space for receivers to find...


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#2454 russsnyder

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 10:19 AM


That first 4th down attempt was when I knew the game was over. I don't care what you did in the regular season. That early in the a playoff game,force the Titans to start in their own territory. Totally different game if that happens.

 

   I didn't think the game was over when they didn't go for it, however, I knew that they were in trouble.

 

   I agree with you that the dynamic changes in a playoff game.

 

   To be fair, I understand why some on here are defending the decisions to go on fourth and short.

 

   However, I think the decision to go for both fourth downs were a result of coaching in a panic mode.

 

   Much like abandoning the running game so early was a panic move as well.


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#2455 bmore_ken

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 10:23 AM

   I didn't think the game was over when they didn't go for it, however, I knew that they were in trouble.

 

   I agree with you that the dynamic changes in a playoff game.

 

   To be fair, I understand why some on here are defending the decisions to go on fourth and short.

 

   However, I think the decision to go for both fourth downs were a result of coaching in a panic mode.

 

   Much like abandoning the running game so early was a panic move as well.


I'm not saying definitively that's when the game was over, I just meant that's how I felt when it happened. They were already behind and gave the Titans  great field position. It just felt like that was the game for me and that was before they even scored on that possession.


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#2456 ravens82

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 12:00 PM

My thoughts on the game:

 

1) The crowd in the 1st quarter was as loud and excited as in the Ray & Ed years.  But they got muted as the game progressed and the home team gave them very little to cheer about.

 

2) The defense knew their job #1.  Stop Henry.  They could not do it.  With Henry rushing for 195 yards, Tannehill didn't have to do much.

 

3) Turnovers were a killer.  2 INTs and fumble that the Titans turned into 2 TDs -- the defense was put into tough spots, but was unable to rise up and hold them to a FG.

 

4) The Ravens identity was built around the run game -- but Roman went away from the run and into panic, "catch-up" mode too early, calling passes over and over.  It 14-6 at the half, with the Ravens down only one score and receiving the 2nd half kickoff.  The first drive of the 2nd half was 13 plays and ended with no points (turnover on downs). Only 3 run plays were called -- a 7 yard run by Ingram in the middle of the drive and then a 1 yard run by Edwards immediately prior to the Jackson run that failed to convert 4th and 1.  The rest were all Jackson passes or short, last-second scrambles when he couldn't find anyone open.  For the game, the RBs had 9 touches for 42 yards.  That's unacceptable for such a run-centric team.

 

5) The Titans played like early-Flacco-era Ravens.  Stout play in the trenches.  Strong run game.  Win the turnover battle.  Bend-but-don't-break defense.  Reminded me of our upset of NE in 2009.  Titans are on a roll, but I expect KC will eliminate them this coming weekend.  KC is a team that can definitely score fast, as they proved this weekend.  The Ravens were used to playing with a lead, and did not handle the pressure of being behind very well.

 

6) As I had stated in previous threads, being one and done in the playoffs precludes considering the year a "success".  Yes, we won 4 more games in the regular season than last year and got the first round bye, but until Jackson and this team learn to execute in the playoffs, they will be considered "chokers" as Humphrey bluntly put it.  I think it's a young team, especially on offense, and it looks like the team is going to stay mostly intact, so I believe they will have plenty of chances to shed that label.  I expect Lamar will continue to improve, as will the team around him, and I expect EDC to manage the draft and free agency well to improve at pass rusher and other key positions.  The future is bright.



#2457 russsnyder

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 12:03 PM


I'm not saying definitively that's when the game was over, I just meant that's how I felt when it happened. They were already behind and gave the Titans great field position. It just felt like that was the game for me and that was before they even scored on that possession.


I got you.

#2458 jamesdean

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 12:28 PM


I'm not saying definitively that's when the game was over, I just meant that's how I felt when it happened. They were already behind and gave the Titans  great field position. It just felt like that was the game for me and that was before they even scored on that possession.

When we turned the ball over on the initial, promising drive and the Titans scored, I started to get that uneasy feeling.  When they made it 14-0 after the failed 4th down conversion, the writing was on the wall that this was going to be a bad one.  You could just feel it down to your bones.  


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#2459 Mackus

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 08:50 PM

I thought we were gonna find a way to win it until the Jackson fumble.

I'd have even still said we were the favorites when Brown caught the ball inside the 5 at the end of the first half. Was really disappointed we called a bad play and only got one shot to the end zone.

I wouldn't have put any money on it, but would've lost several pitchers worth of beer at the next BSL happy hour had I been in the game thread.
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#2460 Mike B

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 10:19 PM

I thought we were gonna find a way to win it until the Jackson fumble.

I'd have even still said we were the favorites when Brown caught the ball inside the 5 at the end of the first half. Was really disappointed we called a bad play and only got one shot to the end zone.

I wouldn't have put any money on it, but would've lost several pitchers worth of beer at the next BSL happy hour had I been in the game thread.

I thought we were going to come back until the failed 4th down conversion, in the third Q.  that and the subsequent big run by Henry was when I knew we were in trouble.


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