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Cashner traded to Boston


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#181 bmore_ken

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 07:08 AM

I know Buddy, you've mentioned that a few time now ;)

Sorry. But I only mentioned it again because your last post kind of validated the position. If you did indeed see what you saw :mrgreen: 



#182 BSLSeanJester

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 07:34 AM

There is also not any difference making talent close in the farm system. Our best prospects are still "second-tier" MLB level players.


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#183 bmore_ken

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 07:40 AM

There is also not any difference making talent close in the farm system. Our best prospects are still "second-tier" MLB level players.

You don't really need a team full of superstars to compete.



#184 Thirteen

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 08:06 AM

You don't really need a team full of superstars to compete.

 

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#185 BSLSteveBirrer

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 08:07 AM

You don't really need a team full of superstars to compete.

Agree, but don't think that's what Sean said at all. What he said is that it looks like our best prospects right now are "second tier" MLB level players. And I don't think you compete with a team of second tier level players. Now perhaps you can build around those guys with some added top flight talent through FA?

 

But you DO need difference makers to compete and I don't see any of the players nearing ready as being difference makers. Better players than what we have today for sure. But not put you over the top players.



#186 BSLSeanJester

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 08:13 AM

You don't really need a team full of superstars to compete.

Never said you did, but you need guys who can produce, and can produce for a sustained period of time. Hopefully for several years.

 

Right now we have two? players on this team that has any kind of track record.

 

And we're obviously short on those kinds of players right now across the organization.


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#187 BSLRobShields

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 08:14 AM

If it’s so easy, why has this team failed to win 70 games for two years and won just 75 when there was real talent here?

Believe me I hope we make that big a jump next year but I don’t believe there’s enough talent available through the means they’ll use to win 20-25 more games next year. And I definitely don’t think it’s some easy thing to do.


Well last year’s team would win 70+ games more often than not. That team was far better, talent wise, then their record showed.

This year, they aren’t trying to win. This team isn’t even a 60 win team as currently constructed.
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#188 weird-O

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 08:40 AM

Sorry. But I only mentioned it again because your last post kind of validated the position. If you did indeed see what you saw :mrgreen:

Yep, it wasn't lost on me. I hope I'm not coming off like a super frustrated about this trade, because I'm not. I just know that starting pitchers are usually coveted at the trade deadline. Even middle of the rotation guys.  


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#189 BSLRobShields

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 08:55 AM

Yep, it wasn't lost on me. I hope I'm not coming off like a super frustrated about this trade, because I'm not. I just know that starting pitchers are usually coveted at the trade deadline. Even middle of the rotation guys.  


Cashner isn’t really a MOR guy though.

He was acquired to be a 5th starter, keep them in games type guy.

And that’s what he is.
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#190 Slidemaster

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 09:01 AM

If it’s so easy, why has this team failed to win 70 games for two years and won just 75 when there was real talent here?

Believe me I hope we make that big a jump next year but I don’t believe there’s enough talent available through the means they’ll use to win 20-25 more games next year. And I definitely don’t think it’s some easy thing to do.


Because they don't want to win 70 games right now. They want to lose as much as possible.

#191 Mackus

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 09:07 AM

In 2012 Joe Saunders was 31 y/o with a career 102 ERA+ in 1160 innings

In 2019 Andrew Cashner is 32 y/o with a career 100 ERA+ in 1150 innings

 

Advantage for Cashner is that he's has a much better ERA at the time of the trade (122 to 97 ERA+) but he doesn't eat as many innings (5.67 IP/GS to 6.19 IP/GS) and has a somewhat reasonable 2020 option.  I would think that in both cases, given both guys have a long track record, you're trading for the guy they've been overall.  I don't think Cashner has anywhere near the same value as a guy who's been a very good 120 ERA+ guy for many years like maybe when Johnny Cueto was traded a couple years ago.



#192 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 09:07 AM

Because they don't want to win 70 games right now. They want to lose as much as possible.

 

I think next year will be sort of the same, though.  I think they would need to bring in players from outside the organization to win 70 games, and they may not want to do that.

 

Next year, Villar, Bundy, and Givens will probably be gone.  None of those guys are great, but they're all competent major league players.  Davis may be gone, too, which truly would be addition by subtraction.

 

But there's not a lot in the minors ready to replace them in 2020.  Mountcastle, maybe, if he can find a position, maybe Hays will get his act together, maybe some of the current young players will be better next year...  but a 20-25 game improvement is a lot with what they have now.  I see a void at 2B, SS, CF, and most of the rotation in 2020 (although I guess there are also voids in most of those places this year, so there's room for improvement).



#193 bmore_ken

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 10:42 AM

Agree, but don't think that's what Sean said at all. What he said is that it looks like our best prospects right now are "second tier" MLB level players. And I don't think you compete with a team of second tier level players. Now perhaps you can build around those guys with some added top flight talent through FA?

 

But you DO need difference makers to compete and I don't see any of the players nearing ready as being difference makers. Better players than what we have today for sure. But not put you over the top players.

I agree with that. But while those guys may be "2nd tier" I believe they will make this a better team next year. How much better remains to be seen. No one expected this to be a one year process.



#194 Thirteen

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 11:59 AM

We all survived a 14 year "process".  I think we should be able to handle a 3-5 year process.


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#195 BSLSeanJester

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 01:14 PM

We all survived a 14 year "process".  I think we should be able to handle a 3-5 year process.

Especially one that has real goals and a system to achieve them.


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#196 SunspotRob

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 02:10 PM

 I just know that starting pitchers are usually coveted at the trade deadline. Even middle of the rotation guys.  

 

Bingo!



#197 Mike B

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 02:50 PM

Cashner isn’t really a MOR guy though.

He was acquired to be a 5th starter, keep them in games type guy.

And that’s what he is.

With all the bad pitching around baseball, he is a middle of the rotation guy.


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#198 bmore_ken

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 02:57 PM

With all the bad pitching around baseball, he is a middle of the rotation guy.

Who apparently isn't worth much.



#199 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 03:34 PM

Alex: Re: Cashner trade– Os get 2 DSL guys with decent stats. Do you think that Elias or K Perez targeted these specific guys (i.e., we wanted them while we were at Houston/Cleveland) and/or they figured 2 lottery tickets had higher upside (but greater risk) than an A/AA prospect (see what Royals got for Homer Bailey). Thanks


Keith Law: I’m sure it’s the former.



#200 Mackus

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 03:35 PM

With all the bad pitching around baseball, he is a middle of the rotation guy.

There is a big difference between his ERA through the first half of the season and the guy he's always been and everybody knows he is. His value doesn't triple because of a good first half. He's still considered as the guy he's always been. He's not too different from Joe Saunders who I mentioned earlier.

I think anyone expecting more than a guy in the back end of someone's top 20 for Cashner was being very unrealistic. Entirely fair to say you'd have preferred that org #17 type prospect over the two guys we got, but it's not reasonable to say we should've gotten some top 10 guy for him. He's just not that level of asset.
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