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#41 Ricker Says

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 08:43 AM

I honestly don't get your point. Passing for 9,000 yds. in 3 years in college is getting it done. He doesn't have to make a giant leap to become an effective passer in the NFL. Even completing 61-62% will make him very dangerous and I expect that at minimum.

I used the word raw because he didn't have a lot of practice as the starter before he was thrown in there. Do you disagree with that too?

The 9,000 yards he threw for in the ACC do not make him an NFL quality passer, nor does his rookie campaign. IMHO, he will never be an NFL quality passer. Again, I hope I'm wrong. My biggest fear is we are in a sort of purgatory with a fairly well balanced roster, but a QB who will keep us from ultimately contending. 


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#42 85Knight

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 09:19 AM

The 9,000 yards he threw for in the ACC do not make him an NFL quality passer, nor does his rookie campaign. IMHO, he will never be an NFL quality passer. Again, I hope I'm wrong. My biggest fear is we are in a sort of purgatory with a fairly well balanced roster, but a QB who will keep us from ultimately contending.


You said that he didn't get it done in college and that's why I pointed out the 9,000 yds.

#43 bmore_ken

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 09:52 AM

I think we've seen his floor, which is what he did as a rookie last year.

 

I think he can only improve personally, especially through passing and decision making, but that's just me.

 

And, I just watched his highlights from last year and am excited to see him improve.

As am I. Most rookie QBs who were thrown into the lion's den unexpectedly like he was might have failed miserably. when you think about it before Flacco's injury he had an entirely different role than post injury. He had to shift his whole game plan on a faltering team. As for completion percentage, whether it's 58 or 60 is largely irrelevant when you consider his running ability. Troy Aikman had 6 seasons under 60%.  Dan Marino 12.



#44 bmore_ken

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 09:54 AM

, but a QB who will keep us from ultimately contending. 

You mean the qb who almost single handedly got us in the playoffs when we were on the way out?



#45 BSLSeanJester

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 09:57 AM

The 9,000 yards he threw for in the ACC do not make him an NFL quality passer, nor does his rookie campaign. IMHO, he will never be an NFL quality passer. Again, I hope I'm wrong. My biggest fear is we are in a sort of purgatory with a fairly well balanced roster, but a QB who will keep us from ultimately contending. 

 

Two of Lamar's best games were against playoff teams on the road.

 

We lost in the playoffs because of shitty & lazy playcalling, and still had a chance to win on last possession due to Lamar's athleticism.


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#46 Ricker Says

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 10:40 AM

Okay, I guess this is one of those polarizing topics where people just can't be honest and reasonable. They made the playoffs because they had an excellent defense. They had a chance to win on the last possession vs. SD because they slipped into their Prevent defense and we made them pay.

Again, I really hope I'm wrong.
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@0TheRick0 (AKA The Rick)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#47 bmore_ken

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:09 AM

. They made the playoffs because they had an excellent defense.

Was that same defense responsible for the 4-5 record before Jackson took over?



#48 Mackus

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:20 AM

Was that same defense responsible for the 4-5 record before Jackson took over?

 

Yes.

 

I think it is completely insane for anyone to suggest that the team finishes the season anything less than 5-2 with Joe or even Griffin at quarterback instead of Lamar.  Lamar played well and he definitely helped the team.  Not taking anything away from waht he did and it was absolutely the right decision to hand the reins over to him for 2019.  But the end-of-season schedule was cake and the defense was on fire.

 

I think the win @SD and the very close game @KC (but still a loss)can be heavily accredited to Lamar's strong play and we likely go 0-2 in those games if he's on the bench.  But all the other 5 wins were easy games that anything in the vicinity of passable QB play leads to a victory, IMO.  I refuse to give Lamar the credit for the defense playing well, I firmly don't believe that the defense was elevated to that  degree because of Lamar's presence or leadership or whatever influence he had on increasing the time of possession.  I don't think time of possession really changes the defensive performance.  Raw point totals, sure, but not on a per drive level.



#49 bmore_ken

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:25 AM

Yes.

I think it is completely insane for anyone to suggest that the team finishes the season anything less than 5-2 with Joe or even Griffin at quarterback instead of Lamar. Lamar played well and he definitely helped the team. Not taking anything away from waht he did and it was absolutely the right decision to hand the reins over to him for 2019. But the end-of-season schedule was cake and the defense was on fire.

I think the win @SD and the very close game @KC (but still a loss)can be heavily accredited to Lamar's strong play and we likely go 0-2 in those games if he's on the bench. But all the other 5 wins were easy games that anything in the vicinity of passable QB play leads to a victory, IMO. I refuse to give Lamar the credit for the defense playing well, I firmly don't believe that the defense was elevated to that degree because of Lamar's presence or leadership or whatever influence he had on increasing the time of possession. I don't think time of possession really changes the defensive performance. Raw point totals, sure, but not on a per drive level.

So the defense played lousy for nine games and then figured it out after Jackson was put in? Or did they only play good against "bad" teams?

#50 Mackus

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:29 AM

So the defense played lousy for nine games and then figured it out after Jackson was put in?

 

No, the defense played great all season long, IMO.  @Cincy, @Car, vCle the only bad games.



#51 BSLSeanJester

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:31 AM

Okay, I guess this is one of those polarizing topics where people just can't be honest and reasonable. They made the playoffs because they had an excellent defense. They had a chance to win on the last possession vs. SD because they slipped into their Prevent defense and we made them pay.

Again, I really hope I'm wrong.

 

We're just trading opinions here.

 

We made the playoffs because Lamar at QB motivated the coaches to run the ball more, something they should have been doing long before the QB switch. Flacco had the most pass attempts in the NFL for like 2 years until he got hurt. Lamar's abilities with rushing the ball helped that tremendously. The ball control also helped the defense stay rested.

 

You're forgetting a big play on one of the scores late in the SD playoff game where Lamar escaped pressure and made a great pass to a wide open Dixon (I think it was Dixon) for a big gain. It was a busted play similar to the Mahomes/Hill busted play in KC.


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#52 Ricker Says

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:31 AM

That Carolina game especially. That was real ugly. The team had a great shot at winning that N.O. game, too. 


@0TheRick0 (AKA The Rick)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#53 85Knight

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:45 AM

We're just trading opinions here.

We made the playoffs because Lamar at QB motivated the coaches to run the ball more, something they should have been doing long before the QB switch. Flacco had the most pass attempts in the NFL for like 2 years until he got hurt. Lamar's abilities with rushing the ball helped that tremendously. The ball control also helped the defense stay rested.

You're forgetting a big play on one of the scores late in the SD playoff game where Lamar escaped pressure and made a great pass to a wide open Dixon (I think it was Dixon) for a big gain. It was a busted play similar to the Mahomes/Hill busted play in KC.


I've watched that game over and over and never saw a "prevent" defense. Now they may have played softer coverage early in the 4th because of the lead but once the Ravens started coming back I'm pretty sure it looked like the same defense they had been playing all game.

The mistake the Ravens made was waiting too long to start throwing the ball against that defense. Didn't Lamar have like 6 pass attempts in the 1st half? Win or lose I'm not running the same plays that aren't working over and over and I'm not Mon. morning quarterbacking either. I was at the game yelling throw the damn ball from my seat.

The next big mistake was that awful fg attempt on 4th and 1 after the defense and special teams were getting us back in the game and the offense was starting to pick up. Damn that still makes me sick.
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#54 bmore_ken

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:50 AM

No, the defense played great all season long, IMO.  @Cincy, @Car, vCle the only bad games.

A 4-5 record and slipping out of playoff contention was great?



#55 Biggsy

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:59 AM

Yes.

I think it is completely insane for anyone to suggest that the team finishes the season anything less than 5-2 with Joe or even Griffin at quarterback instead of Lamar. Lamar played well and he definitely helped the team. Not taking anything away from waht he did and it was absolutely the right decision to hand the reins over to him for 2019. But the end-of-season schedule was cake and the defense was on fire.

I think the win @SD and the very close game @KC (but still a loss)can be heavily accredited to Lamar's strong play and we likely go 0-2 in those games if he's on the bench. But all the other 5 wins were easy games that anything in the vicinity of passable QB play leads to a victory, IMO. I refuse to give Lamar the credit for the defense playing well, I firmly don't believe that the defense was elevated to that degree because of Lamar's presence or leadership or whatever influence he had on increasing the time of possession. I don't think time of possession really changes the defensive performance. Raw point totals, sure, but not on a per drive level.



I disagree with your point on the defense. I 100% believe they played better with Lamar at QB. Not because of presence or leadership. But because with Joe we were going 3 and out a lot. With Lamar and the run heavy approach, even their drives that ended in punts took up time. The defense was on the field less, and the opposing teams had less time to try and score on them. A fresh defense all game because you control the ball on the other side is a huge advantage. it's common sense, the less chances and time you give an offense to score, the less they'll score.

#56 Steve55

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 12:09 PM

We're just trading opinions here.

 

We made the playoffs because Lamar at QB motivated the coaches to run the ball more, something they should have been doing long before the QB switch. Flacco had the most pass attempts in the NFL for like 2 years until he got hurt. Lamar's abilities with rushing the ball helped that tremendously. The ball control also helped the defense stay rested.

 

You're forgetting a big play on one of the scores late in the SD playoff game where Lamar escaped pressure and made a great pass to a wide open Dixon (I think it was Dixon) for a big gain. It was a busted play similar to the Mahomes/Hill busted play in KC.

 

I agree with everything you said. When you had a 40-20 min control of the games with the offense, the D played better when rested. The running game wouldn't have been there with Flacco.


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#57 Mackus

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 12:10 PM

We talked a lot about if extra rest helps a defense last year.  Anecdotally it makes perfect sense that it does.  But all the research we dug up indicated that there is no correlation to offensive time of possession - either on a per game level or for the following drive - and how many points per drive a defense gives up.

 

Fair to disagree and think Lamar was a major influence on the excellent finish to the defense in the offseason.  I just fall on the other side and think that the defense was excellent of it's own accord.  

 

I think there is a much stronger case that Lamar's presence made things way easier for the running backs and the offensive line than there is a case that Lamar (or the run-heavy offense in general) made things easier for the defense.  I'm not trying to argue that Lamar did not improve the offense when he came in. Just that even had the offense not improved, I think the team still finishes with a good record because of the weak schedule and the high level of the defense (and ST).



#58 BSLGabeFerguson

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 12:39 PM

A 4-5 record and slipping out of playoff contention was great?

They played a very easy stretch of games to get them back in contention. This was hashed out over and over last year.


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#59 Mackus

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 12:42 PM

A 4-5 record and slipping out of playoff contention was great?

 

The defense was great during that time.  The overall team wasn't.  I think that distinction was clear in my post.



#60 85Knight

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:12 PM

All of this is just opinion about the won loss record and the play of the defense with Lamar vs. Joe. All I know is I was done with Joe after that Steelers game and that was the first time I ever said that in his 10 years here. We had no idea that Joe was hurt and that Lamar was starting the next game but with a chance to beat the Steelers a 2nd time and climb back in the division race Joe stunk the place up.

Nobody knew Lamar was going to step in and the run game was going to take off but when it did it would have been foolish to change anything. I say give Lamar this season to see what we really have at qb. I'm optimistic to say the least.
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