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NBA 2019-20 General Talk


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#61 SportsGuy

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 02:42 PM

Some awful ideas there

#62 SportsGuy

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 02:42 PM

All the reporting I have seen suggests that the Lakers could have likely gotten him for less.
And I really have to explain why I care about that???
As for the Celtics, they may not have been willing to include Tatum at all (conflicting reports), but including him or making any strong offer seemed to be contingent on getting Kyrie to commit to staying, which most feel was a longshot.


What reporting has used the words “they could have gotten him for less”

I have yet to see that.

#63 mweb08

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 03:08 PM

What reporting has used the words “they could have gotten him for less”

I have yet to see that.


If the reporting is that other teams weren't close to what the Lakers offered, and that their biggest competition was only serious competition if an unlikely thing happened, that suggests that the Lakers could have given up less if they handled the negotiations better.

Now does that mean that we know for sure that he could have been had for less? Of course not and that's not something Griff would say. But we can use the available information to deduce that they probably got out negotiated here and bid against themselves after a certain point.
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#64 SportsGuy

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 03:29 PM

If the reporting is that other teams weren't close to what the Lakers offered, and that their biggest competition was only serious competition if an unlikely thing happened, that suggests that the Lakers could have given up less if they handled the negotiations better.

Now does that mean that we know for sure that he could have been had for less? Of course not and that's not something Griff would say. But we can use the available information to deduce that they probably got out negotiated here and bid against themselves after a certain point.

But is that what the reporting is saying or is that how you are interpreting it?

 

I haven't seen anything that says the Lakers offered way more than anyone else.  



#65 mweb08

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 03:52 PM

It is literally what is being reported from what I've seen including in that Lowe article.

What are the other offers that were the competition? What are you hearing to suggest that it was close?

#66 SportsGuy

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 03:56 PM

It is literally what is being reported from what I've seen including in that Lowe article.

What are the other offers that were the competition? What are you hearing to suggest that it was close?

I have yet to see the words the Lakers offered way more than anyone else. All we know is that Tatum wasn’t on the table along with everything else. Beyond that, what do we know about any of the other offers?

What if the Celtics offered Smart, Brown, Memphis pick and 2 of their 3 first rounders in this year’s draft?

#67 SportsGuy

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 04:08 PM

And btw, it’s also possible that NO told the Lakers you have to pay a little more to get him because we are dealing him within the conference.

#68 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 04:14 PM

I have yet to see the words the Lakers offered way more than anyone else. All we know is that Tatum wasn’t on the table along with everything else. Beyond that, what do we know about any of the other offers?

What if the Celtics offered Smart, Brown, Memphis pick and 2 of their 3 first rounders in this year’s draft?


We know the Knicks didn't get involved like some thought they might.  
We heard beyond Lowe that Celtics were not supposed to have offered much. 
We heard the Lakers offer was reported to be ahead of the Celtics offer, before it was known that they were offering two additional 1's over this year. 

I don't know that we will ever know anything definitively about what else they were offered. 

I mean, I think your overall point is fine...    if the Lakers decided we have to have him, and we're willing to give up Ball, Ingram, the 4th, Hart, and two more 1's to get him and make sure nobody else does... fine.  I do think they'll lock him up. 


I do think they'll ultimately be able to get some depth around James and Davis with their remaining $, and the vet minimum... and if they lock up Davis long-term, that of course matters....     but do feel they gave up a lot, and not sure how long a window this group will have. Clearly they are going to try and win a title now.


I really like the deal for NO, as long as Ingram is going to be okay physically. 

See Randle is opting out of his deal, pretty huge if they can keep him. 



#69 mweb08

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 04:23 PM

Lowe said Boston offer didn't appear close to the Lakers offer and the market for Davis was limited. There is no other known or reported offer that was in contention as far as I know. The Knicks dropped out and the Clippers didn't emerge as a contender as far as we know. The Nuggets considered making an offer, but didn't step up to the plate.

The Pelicans could have waited things out if the Lakers didn't go above and beyond, but they didn't seem to have much of another option in the moment. Even Boston's potential offer would have likely come after securing Kyrie, which would have been after the draft, and probably wouldn't have happened at all.

#70 SportsGuy

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 04:36 PM

Lowe said Boston offer didn't appear close to the Lakers offer and the market for Davis was limited. There is no other known or reported offer that was in contention as far as I know. The Knicks dropped out and the Clippers didn't emerge as a contender as far as we know. The Nuggets considered making an offer, but didn't step up to the plate.

The Pelicans could have waited things out if the Lakers didn't go above and beyond, but they didn't seem to have much of another option in the moment. Even Boston's potential offer would have likely come after securing Kyrie, which would have been after the draft, and probably wouldn't have happened at all.


Yes, Lowe said it didn’t APPEAR to be close.

The value of a 4th this year is huge..worth more than say 14 and 19 in this year’s draft by a lot. And with no Tatum involved, that definitely tips the scales.

However, Shelbourne’s report said the Celtics were serious and that they discussed their young players and, I think it’s obvious to believe, that they were throwing multiple first rounders at them as well.

However, it’s also true that Shelbourne said the Celtics wouldn’t give up as much as LA. Ok, well that’s the case in every trade. There is always a team that is going to pay more than anyone else and, quite often, a premium is paid if you trade within the conference and/or division.

So, maybe the Lakers had to give up a first rounder and Hart instead of Kuzma to get the deal done.

I think the Lakers did put their foot down on Kuzma. They kept him and instead traded a rotational player and a pick they likely believe will be in the mid to late 20s. I don’t see that as some drastic overpay at all.

I think the perception of things is that the idea of no Tatum from Boston and the 4th pick from the Lakers really tips the scales in the favor of LA.

Not a lot of difference between Smart/Brown vs Ingram/Ball especially considering the injury situations surrounding the latter 2, especially Ingram (I think he’s the most talented player here but blood clots can be a scary issue).

I think the “other assets” are similar, if not in the favor of Boston although I admit it depends on whether they have that Memphis pick involved or not.

If Boston’s offer was Smart, Brown, Memphis pick and the 14th and 22nd pick in this draft, that would have been very strong. But the Lakers offer would be better because the Memphis pick (in terms of where in the draft it will be) is an unknown vs the Lakers pick is known.



#71 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 04:45 PM

Did have the Rich Paul quote that if Boston obtained him, he wouldn't extend and would go into FA.  That combined with their unwillingness to spend other draft assets unless Kyrie extended had to have limited how much Boston was offering. 

Guess it's possible they were offering Smart, Brown, the Memphis pick, the 14th, and 22nd... but that seems unlikely imo.



#72 mweb08

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 04:51 PM

Yep, Boston was serious, but their offer apparently didn't come close to Boston's. And even that potential Boston offer you mention isn't that close to what the Pelicans got. You can talk about eye of the beholder and all, but the Lakers draft picks and swaps in this offer beat that pretty easily and Smart doesn't have much value.

So once again, the Lakers probably gave up more than they needed to, maybe even way more. We'll likely never know for sure, but I think the evidence clearly points to that as being likely.

#73 mweb08

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 04:52 PM

Did have the Rich Paul quote that if Boston obtained him, he wouldn't extend and would go into FA. That combined with their unwillingness to spend other draft assets unless Kyrie extended had to have limited how much Boston was offering.

Guess it's possible they were offering Smart, Brown, the Memphis pick, the 14th, and 22nd... but that seems unlikely imo.


They likely wouldn't have even come anywhere remotely close to the Lakers offer without securing Kyrie, which seemed unlikely.

#74 SportsGuy

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 04:55 PM

Did have the Rich Paul quote that if Boston obtained him, he wouldn't extend and would go into FA. That combined with their unwillingness to spend other draft assets unless Kyrie extended had to have limited how much Boston was offering.

Guess it's possible they were offering Smart, Brown, the Memphis pick, the 14th, and 22nd... but that seems unlikely imo.

I think it’s likely they had all of that on the table except the Memphis pick.

The Memphis pick is where I wonder if they drew the line.

If they didn’t have 2-3 first rounders(including the Memphis pick), I would agree that the Lakers overpaid.

However, I also think it’s likely they had to overpay AND I don’t think the extra assets they gave up mean anything.

To me, this deal is Ingram, Ball and the 4th pick.

The rest of the assets are relatively meaningless and easily replaceable.

Either way, I think Mike is wrong in basically saying the Lakers made a mistake in how they handled this.

#75 SportsGuy

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 04:56 PM

Yep, Boston was serious, but their offer apparently didn't come close to Boston's. And even that potential Boston offer you mention isn't that close to what the Pelicans got. You can talk about eye of the beholder and all, but the Lakers draft picks and swaps in this offer beat that pretty easily and Smart doesn't have much value.

So once again, the Lakers probably gave up more than they needed to, maybe even way more. We'll likely never know for sure, but I think the evidence clearly points to that as being likely.

The future Laker first rounders aren’t worth as much as Boston’s first rounders right now.

#76 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 04:56 PM

They likely wouldn't have even come anywhere remotely close to the Lakers offer without securing Kyrie, which seemed unlikely.

 

Moving the discussion to just Kyrie.... I'm pretty meh on him, you? 

Respect that he's a great 1x1 player, with strong offensive ability....  but don't think he plays much D, don't think he's a leader, and seems like a poor teammate. 

Understand he's regarded as a significantly better talent than Russell, but I'm a bit surprised that Nets are so eager to move from Russell for him.  Russell AS in his own right, younger, and the Nets seemed to have developed a good chemistry. A chemistry which will change (even if not for the worse, will change with a new dynamic) with Kyrie. 



#77 SportsGuy

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 04:57 PM

Kyrie is like Westbrook. Great player but not sure you want to build a team around him.

#78 SportsGuy

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 05:03 PM

Kyrie is like Westbrook. Great player but not sure you want to build a team around him.

In other words, if you are Boston, you shouldn't care that he is done.

 

OTOH, if you are Boston and you have all these assets that you have been accumulating for years, its time to start doing something with them. 



#79 mweb08

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 05:08 PM

The future Laker first rounders aren’t worth as much as Boston’s first rounders right now.


You're way off base here. You're acting like Lebron is 5+ years younger. Those picks may never become high picks, but they have legit potential, especially when you consider the pick deferments and swaps involved.

#80 mweb08

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 05:09 PM

The Lakers likely gave up more than they had to. If they did, that's a mistake.




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