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The system is broken! Everybody strike!


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#1 Slidemaster

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 07:00 PM

Give me a break. Will the players finally stop their saber rattling? Manny and Harper got exactly what they were "supposed to" all along.

#2 BSLRobShields

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 07:02 PM

The problem was never about the elite guys.

The middling guys are the ones that are getting left out.

Of course, those are the guys that should be getting left out of those deals. Most of the contracts are always terrible.
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#3 dude

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 07:04 PM

I think the discussion is centered more around the next tier of guys like Moustakas that, 2 years in a row, can't get a multi-year deal he was promised by his agent.

 

...or Adam Jones who still isn't signed.

 

...or Kimbrel who isn't getting what he was promised.



#4 Slidemaster

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 07:05 PM

The problem was never about the elite guys.

The middling guys are the ones that are getting left out.

Of course, those are the guys that should be getting left out of those deals. Most of the contracts are always terrible.


To hear the players talk, they couldn't stop talking about why Harper and Machado were unsigned. Now that they are on squads, the rest will come quickly.

Baseball is not broken. The players are getting paid.

#5 BSLRobShields

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 07:11 PM

To hear the players talk, they couldn't stop talking about why Harper and Machado were unsigned. Now that they are on squads, the rest will come quickly.

Baseball is not broken. The players are getting paid.

They just pointed out the high profile guys because they were the headliners.

But the middling guys aren’t getting paid like before. They are getting MiL deals or short term contracts.

Now, I don’t view that as broken..that’s smart.

But it’s a big change and teams are out there tanking, so you can argue that is an issue (I personally disagree).
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#6 dude

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 07:19 PM

Also, players may start to change their own tide. 

 

You see this in recent days with big signings like Hicks (7/70), Arenado (8/260) and Mikolas (4/68).

 

Unlike the US economy where your earning power isn't really in competition with anyone else (unless, maybe, you are a Criminal Justice major)....professional sports are a closed system.

 

There are X number of jobs and if you have a guaranteed contract, you have one of them. 



#7 dude

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 07:21 PM

To hear the players talk, they couldn't stop talking about why Harper and Machado were unsigned. Now that they are on squads, the rest will come quickly.

Baseball is not broken. The players are getting paid.

 

The generic issue is more about the agents, but the agents want to project it on the Teams because they want no accountability for the mess they create and they send the Players forward with their message.

 

Also, the more specific issue is about timing.  These guys are signed now, but ST games have already started.  You have an offseason where nothing can get going because everyone is waiting on everyone else....again, back to agents.



#8 mdrunning

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 07:33 PM

The middle-tier guys not getting paid isn't nearly as vexing an issue for the players as they may want everyone to believe. For every veteran who gets squeezed out, there's a first-year player ready to take his place and, in some instances, possessing the potential to one day shoot the moon in free agency and land the next bellwether deal.

 

Those guys in the middle don't really represent a problem to the MLBPA because once they're out of baseball, they're out of the union.



#9 BSLRobShields

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:29 PM

The middle-tier guys not getting paid isn't nearly as vexing an issue for the players as they may want everyone to believe. For every veteran who gets squeezed out, there's a first-year player ready to take his place and, in some instances, possessing the potential to one day shoot the moon in free agency and land the next bellwether deal.
 
Those guys in the middle don't really represent a problem to the MLBPA because once they're out of baseball, they're out of the union.


The middling players make up most of the league. They absolutely are a problem for the union
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#10 JeremyStrain

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:49 PM

The real problem is that owners are trying to keep salaries down by intentionally avoiding older players, even still in their prime that may be nearing decline. There's merit to that, they won't be worth that amount by the end of the contract so we aren't committing to that and being stuck with it later. But players are used to that because it's been that way since the dawn of free agency. With metrics now, you can tangibly see when players are worth the most, when decline starts and what their production is likely to be over the next period. The double edged sword of having WAR to take to your arbitration hearing is that they can use it to not give you that fat contract at 31-32 years old that you thought you were gonna get.

 

Now where it's really messed up is they pay you pennies in the minors, then they own you for your first 6 years in the majors, so lets say an average of 24-30, and your salary was controlled by arbitration before that, so your first real time to cash in and now teams aren't spending because you are going to decline in 3-4 years. The ones that can still cash in are the ones that hit the majors before they are 21, since they'll be a FA at 26 or 27, but the market for aging veterans is in the crapper right now, and they can't cash in early or late now, and the middle is owned by arb. Something has to give there.


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#11 mdrunning

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:53 PM

The middling players make up most of the league. They absolutely are a problem for the union

They're not the guys who drive the payscale, however.

 

What we have now is a combination of an aged-based "middle class" of players and teams' complete control over service time for younger ones. If what's left is largely top-tier players who already "got theirs" and pre-arb players who all think they'll be the next in line for the big bucks, that's a constituency the union can live with. 



#12 McNulty

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:59 PM

Give me a break. Will the players finally stop their saber rattling? Manny and Harper got exactly what they were "supposed to" all along.


Jesus Christ
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#13 mdrunning

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 10:06 PM

The real problem is that owners are trying to keep salaries down by intentionally avoiding older players, even still in their prime that may be nearing decline. There's merit to that, they won't be worth that amount by the end of the contract so we aren't committing to that and being stuck with it later. But players are used to that because it's been that way since the dawn of free agency. With metrics now, you can tangibly see when players are worth the most, when decline starts and what their production is likely to be over the next period. The double edged sword of having WAR to take to your arbitration hearing is that they can use it to not give you that fat contract at 31-32 years old that you thought you were gonna get.

 

Now where it's really messed up is they pay you pennies in the minors, then they own you for your first 6 years in the majors, so lets say an average of 24-30, and your salary was controlled by arbitration before that, so your first real time to cash in and now teams aren't spending because you are going to decline in 3-4 years. The ones that can still cash in are the ones that hit the majors before they are 21, since they'll be a FA at 26 or 27, but the market for aging veterans is in the crapper right now, and they can't cash in early or late now, and the middle is owned by arb. Something has to give there.

What you describe, however, is the system the players pushed for in the nascent days of free agency. Difference was then, baseball had underpaid its players for so long, there was plenty of room for players to catch up and teams to still prosper. What resulted was not only a star-system which the players had envisioned setting the payscale every offseason, but the high price of mediocrity also putting upward pressure on salaries as well. Come behind all that with arbitration and, well, virtually everyone was artificially high.

 

The current compensation system is based more on seniority than merit. If you were good enough to last six years and attain free agency, someone was going to pay you. That model appears to be going the way of typewriters and rooftop antennas. 



#14 BSLChrisBacon

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 10:41 PM

I wouldn’t be surprised if the PA pushes for a change to the arbitration process. The whole system needs an overhaul, IMO. I’d also expect some sort of work stoppage after 2021.
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#15 ivanbalt

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 06:49 AM

The wrath of the Chris Davis contract. :grin:



#16 weird-O

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 08:02 AM

I wouldn’t be surprised if the PA pushes for a change to the arbitration process. The whole system needs an overhaul, IMO. I’d also expect some sort of work stoppage after 2021.

Raise the min. salary by a $200K, and shorted arbitration to 4 years? Does that work?


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#17 Mackus

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 09:52 AM

Raise the min. salary by a $200K, and shorted arbitration to 4 years? Does that work?

 

What do you mean by "shorten arbitration to 4 years" ?  Players are free agents after 4 years of service?  I think doing that would cover a TON of the ground between players and owners.  That would be a huge concession by the owners to the players.  



#18 BSLSteveBirrer

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 10:01 AM

I don't know that there is a real good answer when it comes to the arbitration/years of service issue. The teams have a ton of money invested in the players and need some control once that skill parlays to the majors. But the players also have a need to earn a fair wage for their skills relative to other players.

 

Maybe the salaries in the minors should be upped with leaving the team ownership times the same?



#19 Slidemaster

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 10:02 AM


I wouldn’t be surprised if the PA pushes for a change to the arbitration process. The whole system needs an overhaul, IMO. I’d also expect some sort of work stoppage after 2021.


A change to arbitration is totally justified. Demanding a salary floor is not. If there is a work stoppage when 13 year deals are being handed out, I will gladly sit back and watch the sport burn, or watch replacement players take their place. Demanding the owners sign them to stupid contracts forever just because there was a 7-8 year window where it was common is nothing short of hilarious.
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#20 weird-O

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 11:10 AM

What do you mean by "shorten arbitration to 4 years" ?  Players are free agents after 4 years of service?  I think doing that would cover a TON of the ground between players and owners.  That would be a huge concession by the owners to the players.  

I could have said that better, since arbitration doesn't start at year one. But yes, after 4 years of service, they're free agents.


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