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#41 Mackus

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 10:31 AM


Do you think it’s ridiculous to think that this family would tell people one thing but end up having their actions be different?

Or even if it's not an outright lie. For them to sell the job saying and intending that they will be out of the way, then in 6 months or 2 years from now, when something they don't like happens, they go right back to meddling in everything.

#42 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 10:50 AM

Do you think it’s ridiculous to think that this family would tell people one thing but end up having their actions be different?


I'm saying if those two hires are made and Brady stays, they are comfortable with his role in the organization going forward whatever that is...

#43 BSLRobShields

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 10:55 AM

I'm saying if those two hires are made and Brady stays, they are comfortable with his role in the organization going forward whatever that is...


That’s fine..but that’s not really the discussion.

They can be comfortable now...doesn’t mean it stays that way.
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#44 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 11:05 AM

That’s fine..but that’s not really the discussion.

They can be comfortable now...doesn’t mean it stays that way.


The idea that Brady is going to be lurking in the shadows as the true decision maker is tin foil hat stuff.

If John and Lou want him in that capacity (and he wants it), they will just make him either role now.

If he doesn't want to be President or EVP, but they (John and Lou) are going to mandate Anderson stays in a position of authority; those new hires are going to have it spelled out what authority Anderson has. Realistically it (the chain of command) would probably be in their contracts.

If Anderson stays, and there are two hires above, those hires are going to be comfortable with Anderson's role going forward.


Now if that is circumvented later, and becomes an issue..that would be very Orioles.. so in that sense, maybe they should just part with Brady now so the outside world is not continually wondering about his influence and covert operations.

#45 birdwatcher55

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 11:55 AM

My sense is the POBO cleans house from top to bottom.

#46 BSLRobShields

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 02:38 PM

The idea that Brady is going to be lurking in the shadows as the true decision maker is tin foil hat stuff.

If John and Lou want him in that capacity (and he wants it), they will just make him either role now.

If he doesn't want to be President or EVP, but they (John and Lou) are going to mandate Anderson stays in a position of authority; those new hires are going to have it spelled out what authority Anderson has. Realistically it (the chain of command) would probably be in their contracts.

If Anderson stays, and there are two hires above, those hires are going to be comfortable with Anderson's role going forward.


Now if that is circumvented later, and becomes an issue..that would be very Orioles.. so in that sense, maybe they should just part with Brady now so the outside world is not continually wondering about his influence and covert operations.

It’s bit tin foil hate stuff...it’s how things have been. We have evidence that this is a fact of how things have gone. No matter what is said to the hires, it doesn’t mean Brady won’t still walk around assuming he can do what he wants, talk to people, go behind their backs, etc...he has the ear of the brothers. We know that. That ear doesn’t go away.

Getting this title or that title may prevent Brady from being a rover, which he doesn’t want.


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#47 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 02:52 PM

It’s bit tin foil hate stuff...it’s how things have been. We have evidence that this is a fact of how things have gone. No matter what is said to the hires, it doesn’t mean Brady won’t still walk around assuming he can do what he wants, talk to people, go behind their backs, etc...he has the ear of the brothers. We know that. That ear doesn’t go away.

Getting this title or that title may prevent Brady from being a rover, which he doesn’t want.

 

We have evidence that Brady's role grew during Duquette's tenure.

We know that his title changed, culminating with him becoming VP / Asst. GM.  

(Which is important, because the powers that be continued to list him under Duquette as his authority grew.)

We have zero evidence to show that as his powers grew, and he carved out a somewhat autonomous position; that his role had not been agreed to by Duquette.

We have zero evidence that he wasn't ultimately reporting to Duquette.

 

The whispers from other organizations that came up this year, "We're not sure who is in charge with the O's,' was disconcerting...  but ultimately the O's answer was that it was still Dan.

 

The fact that the Asst. GM had a role of authority, does not mean he was the puppet master pulling the strings.
The fact that at the near end of Duquette's tenure, that Anderson's authority / and voice to ownership continued to grow... does not mean he was controlling things.

 

 

 

Now, if the O's hire John Hart or other at President, and someone else at EVP / GM...  and it becomes clear that Brady is the one orchestrating things behind the scenes, and not in-conjunction with the other two... then we'll agree that would obviously be an issue.

Want to bypass any possibility of that, then just don't keep Brady on-board.

 

But to your point, "No matter what is said to the hires, it doesn’t mean Brady won’t still walk around assuming he can do what he wants, talk to people, go behind their backs, etc...he has the ear of the brothers. We know that. That ear doesn’t go away,"  that can easily be avoided whether he stays or not.

It's as simple having all parties (the two hires, John & Lou, and Anderson) in the same room, and clearly defining roles. John and Lou directing Anderson to go through the hires, and not come running to them. If you don't think that is practical, than the only answer is to not have Brady stay.

 

 

Also, here is another thing.... the two hires figure to bring in a minimum of 20+ people of their own to the organization. Their imprint will be wide.



#48 dude

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 05:46 PM

Chris, you're just posting what you want to be true.  There's no merit to the process you are describing when it comes to the Orioles.

 

I post trades all of the time, right?  I'm not under some delusion the Orioles could make anything happen, but the things I post are usually in some band that winds up being reasonably available (I'm not trading for Trout or anything silly).

 

You are posting what the Orioles could do.  However, you seem to be under some delusion that they will actually operate in the responsible way you describe.

 

You seem to want to write off the things that are actually happening as "conspiracy theory" and "tin foil hat".

 

Is there an ownership group in MLB less qualified to run a team than John and Lou Angelos?



#49 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 05:56 PM

Chris, you're just posting what you want to be true.  There's no merit to the process you are describing when it comes to the Orioles.

 

I post trades all of the time, right?  I'm not under some delusion the Orioles could make anything happen, but the things I post are usually in some band that winds up being reasonably available (I'm not trading for Trout or anything silly).

 

You are posting what the Orioles could do.  However, you seem to be under some delusion that they will actually operate in the responsible way you describe.

 

You seem to want to write off the things that are actually happening as "conspiracy theory" and "tin foil hat".

 

Is there an ownership group in MLB less qualified to run a team than John and Lou Angelos?

 

No, I'm not. 

We will see what happens structure wise going forward and over time.

We will see what John and Lou are as owners over time.

We will see what organization they develop under them over time.

What I am confident in, is that if you bring on a President and you bring on a EVP / GM; and the organization retains Brady in a position of leadership... that the President and EVP / GM will have a clear understanding of what Brady's role is.

If we - as message board posters - can identify that Brady has had some level of influence with Ownership...  and he's already had the title of VP / Asst. GM...  and Ownership goes to the new hires, and tells them that Brady is going to have to be part of the Front Office going forward in a position of leadership.... it stands to basic logic that those hires will be smart enough to discuss Brady's role (and will have signed off on it as well).



I don't have feelings on John and Lou's competence.  I don't think there is some large body of work.
I feel they basically took over here in '18.

I give them credit for acknowledging some of the philosophical restraints of the organization need to change.
They get graded on their results in enacting that change.


The biggest grade against them so far, is the trade with Philadelphia. And to a lesser degree, the Gausman trade to Atlanta.



#50 Mackus

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 05:58 PM


The biggest grade against them so far, is the trade with Philadelphia. And to a lesser degree, the Gausman trade to Atlanta.


I'd say all the trades, and refusing to pay contract to better the return, are big grades against them.

#51 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 06:00 PM

I'd say all the trades, and refusing to pay contract to better the return, are big grades against them.


I'm good with the majority of the trades made and the returns they got.

If they wanted more, they should have traded guys a year earlier.   Trading them when they did, they got the returns they should have.  The exception being to the Braves cause of O'Day; but frankly I was okay with that return as well.  Could have been better, but livable.



#52 Mackus

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 06:04 PM

The return undoubtedly would have been better had we not insisted on dumping salary. That insistence obviously came from ownership.

Pay the remaining salary and don't hang ODay's contract around Gausman's neck and we do better. Maybe Duquette still acquires a lot of nobodies over fewer, more encouraging prospects. But the overall value is definitely higher.

#53 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 06:07 PM

The return undoubtedly would have been better had we not insisted on dumping salary. That insistence obviously came from ownership.

Pay the remaining salary and don't hang ODay's contract around Gausman's neck and we do better. Maybe Duquette still acquires a lot of nobodies over fewer, more encouraging prospects. But the overall value is definitely higher.


Yeah, it's a fair argument.  And given their need for as much talent as possible, it should've been the priority.



#54 BSLRobShields

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 06:33 PM

And Oday could have possibly been a trade chip in 2019.
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#55 birdwatcher55

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Posted 18 October 2018 - 06:49 PM

What is Gausman going to knock down in arbitration this year? Is still like this trade.

#56 Mackus

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Posted 18 October 2018 - 07:31 PM

What is Gausman going to knock down in arbitration this year? Is still like this trade.

What does his arb number have anything to do with the trade? We didn't owe him anything guaranteed for 2019.

We didn't trade him. We sold him for $12M or whatever it was we owed O'Day. I can't see why any fan would rather give the Angelos family $12M rather than give the farm system an extra organizational top 10 or so prospect. It's not like they are using that money to better the team. It's ownership profit versus talent in the system. Unless your last name is Angelos, it makes zero sense to like that trade unless they use the additional international money they got, which is overwhelmingly likely not to happen.
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#57 BSLRobShields

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Posted 18 October 2018 - 08:52 PM

What does his arb number have anything to do with the trade? We didn't owe him anything guaranteed for 2019.

We didn't trade him. We sold him for $12M or whatever it was we owed O'Day. I can't see why any fan would rather give the Angelos family $12M rather than give the farm system an extra organizational top 10 or so prospect. It's not like they are using that money to better the team. It's ownership profit versus talent in the system. Unless your last name is Angelos, it makes zero sense to like that trade unless they use the additional international money they got, which is overwhelmingly likely not to happen.

I think he is saying he would rather save the money than spend it on KG..which is, of course, ridiculous.
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#58 Mike B

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 09:47 AM

Let's ll be honest, the trades made,  were salary dumps.  They added very little that will make a difference in coming years.   Diaz may be a player, Villar has some value, and maybe a few of the BP arms prove useful, but the real appeal to ownership was the millions that came off the books.

I blame DD for everything, but don't blame him for the mediocre returns.  He was told to slash payroll, and he did.  Could a better GM, been more creative a done better, sure, but he accomplished what ownership wanted.


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#59 Mackus

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 09:58 AM

Dictating driving down payroll rather than including salary with our traded players to maximize return value is absolutely an ownership decision.  No way to put that on Duquette, IMO, unless maybe you want to argue that he was trying to appeal himself to ownership as the man for the future by helping them out by slashing payroll (I wouldn't make that case).

 

However I do think that it's very fair to criticize Duquette for prioritizing quantity over quality.  It's not inherently a bad idea, scouting is difficult and largely a crapshoot so no problem with diversifying the risk.  However, I'd have preferred we bundle up the value into fewer bins and get back some players with better profiles than many guys who all have more warts.  I don't think we get back particularly better primary guys for our trades had we gone this route, but I do think we could have gotten a more promising 2nd guy in many cases than the 2 or 3 fringe top-30 guys at best we got in several of these trades. 



#60 weird-O

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 10:53 AM

Roch said there's isn't much news leaking out of the Warehouse. The one thing he said, is that they're interviewing people for the GM job. And he finds that interesting, since ownership has said they will let their new Prez make all those decisions. He was brainstorming on why this sequence could possibly be taking place, while staying true to their word (the Prez will make all the decisions). But in the end, he couldn't make any sense out of their interviewing for the GM first. 


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Good news! I saw a dog today.





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