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What is the future of athletic culture...


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#1 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 02:51 PM

...after the "toxic culture" report from College Park?

 

I'd like to keep this separate from the McNair tragedy because I think they are two different things. 

 

Some people seem shocked that MD football was run like a boot camp. I'm not. IMO it's naive to think that events from the "toxic culture" doesn't happen at every college. Some people say that's a BS excuse, ok, but where was the outrage before this article? 

 

So what is the future, and at what levels? IIRC sports were always just for fun, until you got to about 14, and then if you fucked up, you heard about it. So from high school, up through college, do they need to have a guidance counselor at each practice, in each team meeting, at each film session, in each weight room, to make sure no coach raises his voice in anger? No coach says the 7 dirty words? No coach hurls an object across a room for effect? No coach calls out a player in front of his peers? 

 

How does toxic culture get policed? Who decides whats toxic? Where does it end? 

 

I remember in football practice a kid false started, twice. So the linemen hit the big 7 man sled in punishment, and pushed it around while the kid stood on top of it. The kid at MD who didn't make weight had to eat candy bars while his teammates worked out. Similar situations. Similar to Pyle in Full Metal Jacket. So would making the lineman push the sled around for 20 minutes because someone else screws up cross the line? 

 

Kid fumbles a ball, owes the coach 200 pushups. Seen that too. Crosses the line? Toxic? Player might think so. Another player might tough it out and hold on the ball much tighter for the rest of his life. 

 

Is the future that athletics are handled with kid gloves? Professional classroom settings for film and team meetings. Criticism at practice handled with that "good/bad sandwich" corporate crap? 

 

"Hey. I really appreciate you coming out here today. I feel like you were a little late closing your hands on the ball that was thrown right at you and the ball ended up on the ground. It's not your fault, we'll work on that together. By the way, we're excited to have you out here. Take your time back to the huddle, get em next time pal." 


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#2 Mackus

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 03:00 PM

I think making sports less like a war era boot camp would be a good thing.  You can get people to give good effort without having to resort to such dehumanizing tactics.  And if you can't, then it's the players fault, cut them and move on.  Sports aren't important enough to sacrifice your dignity for.  Some things are.  Not college football.



#3 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 03:32 PM

More Pete Carroll and less Bear Bryant.

Competition and effort should always matter.   So should treating people with respect.



#4 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 04:23 PM

How about someone like Gary Williams? 

 

Wasn't choking guys like Bobby Knight. But I don't think someone with virgin ears would want to be in one of his huddles. 

 

I think you can be a hard ass without being personal. 


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#5 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 04:25 PM

How about someone like Gary Williams?

Wasn't choking guys like Bobby Knight. But I don't think someone with virgin ears would want to be in one of his huddles.

I think you can be a hard ass without being personal.


Right, I think that is the line. You can be a hard ass without it being personal, and without crossing a line to abuse.
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#6 bnickle

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 04:27 PM

Lol. You think Gary never made it personal???

#7 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 04:44 PM

Lol. You think Gary never made it personal???


I love Gary, and I know he did.

Mike asked what the future is.  It's that.  And it's fine. 

You learn and adjust. 

 



#8 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 06:52 PM


I love Gary, and I know he did.

Mike asked what the future is. It's that. And it's fine.

You learn and adjust.


But do you think his in your face style would today be looked at as berating? As belittling? The first time a coach is on camera getting in the face of a kid and going ballistic, like Gary would, is that going to be frowned upon? If it happens in games on camera you know it happens at practice off camera. In football it isn’t always the head coach cause they have so much else to worry about. It usually the position coach or coordinator that is giving his group hell for a screw up.

Will an athlete who can’t take that kind of heat feel like he’s in a “toxic situation”? Blow the whistle on his coach because he can’t take the pressure of being yelled at?

Like I said, I want to keep the McNair thing separate, everyone should take the fall for allowing that to happen.

But had that not happened, the rest of the stuff I’ve heard, knocking food out of hands in a meeting, name calling...meh. Whatever. Maybe I’d fire the coach who made the kid eat candy bars til he threw up because he wasn’t losing weight, because that just isn’t constructive or helping anyone in anyway and certainly doesn’t help you prepare for a football game.

The kid who got his plate knocked away...For all we know food isn’t allowed in the classroom and he got shown a rough way that there are rules and youre going to follow them. If you break a simple rule in the classroom, will you break a simple rule on the field that hurts the team? Squash that bug right there. No problem with that stuff.
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#9 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 06:53 PM

I guess all in all, like anything else, evaluate it on a case by case basis.
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#10 SportsGuy

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 08:39 AM

People are raising a bunch of pussies nowadays. Everyone has an issue about something. Its not like it used to be.

Because of that, there will need to be a culture change.

The problem is, the culture that will never change is that if you don't win, you don't keep your job.

#11 The Epic

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 09:10 AM

People are raising a bunch of pussies nowadays. Everyone has an issue about something. Its not like it used to be.


Jesus. Get the hell off your lawn, huh? LOL

I think that if the culture changes, and winning is still valued (as it is, and should be), then winning by these standards will become the norm.

It's "winning at all costs" that will start to float away a bit.

#12 SportsGuy

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 09:22 AM

Jesus. Get the hell off your lawn, huh? LOL

I think that if the culture changes, and winning is still valued (as it is, and should be), then winning by these standards will become the norm.

It's "winning at all costs" that will start to float away a bit.

Damn right...I am so sick of all the pampering, coddling and crying over nothing nowadays.

Its going to get the point where coaches will be outed because they "weren't being nice to me".

There is a line that they shouldn't go over, as I stated before. That line should be universal and obvious. But people will set that line at a ridiculous point.

#13 Mackus

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 09:26 AM

I think the line should be set somewhere obvious as well.  And I think it is set well past "they weren't being nice to me" concern.  That's not much different than a strawman argument, IMO, every case like this we've seen, the coaches were doing things that were far beyond what anyone should think is ok.  Maybe this report is bogus and they really weren't doing all this stuff, but if they were, we all agree that it's wrong, right?  That's way past the line, right?  I don't think there is any reasonable concern that eventually coaches won't be able to yell at players when they aren't giving good effort, or use some strong words to motivate kids when training.  I don't think the line moves from where most people think is reasonable. 

 

I do think any coaches who can only get results by going up to and past that well established line will be forced out, which I think is a good thing.



#14 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 09:43 AM

Damn right...I am so sick of all the pampering, coddling and crying over nothing nowadays.

Its going to get the point where coaches will be outed because they "weren't being nice to me".

There is a line that they shouldn't go over, as I stated before. That line should be universal and obvious. But people will set that line at a ridiculous point.

This is ultimately what I'm worried about. The line as you may have mentioned before is probably the Rutgers coach who would use gay slurs, did he use racial slurs too? That's unnecessary and fireable. But I could see kids all of sudden becoming a whistle blower when the coach makes them uncomfortable by just yelling "move your fucking ass" when they are moving slow.

 

A team is as good as it's weakest player. When they figure out who that is, because the coach harps on them the most, the team rallies around that player to strengthen him up, mainly so they don't have to run 20 suicide sprints, or do 50 8 count body builders, or push the sled around until they vomit because the weak player screwed up again. Team building 101 in sports.

 

They call that "incentive training". Making someone eat candy bars for an hour who you want to see lose weight, thats just being an asshole. It's a waste of everyones time. Use that hour to make sure he's using the gym equipment properly. 


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#15 birdwatcher55

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 01:05 PM

I'd love to see Gary take over the Athletic Department at Maryland. It faces an uphill battle and needs Gary's dedication and tenacity like never before in my opinion.

#16 NewMarketSean

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 02:00 PM

Damn right...I am so sick of all the pampering, coddling and crying over nothing nowadays.

Its going to get the point where coaches will be outed because they "weren't being nice to me".

There is a line that they shouldn't go over, as I stated before. That line should be universal and obvious. But people will set that line at a ridiculous point.

Well they won't be going out for football anyway, so don't have to worry about them.


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#17 McNulty

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 02:07 PM

Damn right...I am so sick of all the pampering, coddling and crying over nothing nowadays.

Its going to get the point where coaches will be outed because they "weren't being nice to me".

There is a line that they shouldn't go over, as I stated before. That line should be universal and obvious. But people will set that line at a ridiculous point.

 

This is exactly why its so tough to get hazing out of a culture.  I had it this way, so it should continue (bad or good).

 

Going forward, this is going to be a hyper-sensitive issue for decades.  It'll influence programs for 20 years, easy.


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#18 BSLSteveBirrer

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 02:14 PM

The problem is that the "line' has more than creeped too far IMO. It sounds like we on here anyway pretty much agree that the line is drawn when it gets to being personnel. But nowadays "abuse" is a pretty broad term. Is it abusive to call a player a pansy? Is it abuse to call a player a wussie? Who gets to decide what the line is?

 

I think Rob has pretty much nailed it. Society has gone way too far overboard with this stuff. The way things stand today you can't hardly even look cross wise at somebody without it being a national crisis. People need to grow some skin.



#19 mweb08

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 02:49 PM

Considering the culture of college football and wrestling among others being what it is, I think it's pretty hard to argue that we've gone too far.

#20 bnickle

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 03:00 PM

You know what pay these student athletes. Give them a free education too. But with that comes the coaches rights to drop them anytime they want after a semester ends. So these kids dont want to work, want a free ride, want to slack. Go slack at a D3 school where maybe your natural talent is good enough where a coach doesnt have to demand more




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