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Balt Baseball: The best move O's can make in a rebuild is build around Buck


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#1 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:06 AM

Balt Baseball: The best move Orioles can make in a rebuild is build around Buck

https://www.baltimor...ld-around-buck/



#2 Thirteen

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:22 AM

Nope

 

"He’s always been a stickler for fundamentals"

 

The guy that is in charge of a team that can't field, can't bunt and swings at bad pitches?

 

I'm done with Buck.


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#3 ivanbalt

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:38 AM

Nope

 

"He’s always been a stickler for fundamentals"

 

The guy that is in charge of a team that can't field, can't bunt and swings at bad pitches?

 

I'm done with Buck.

 

Exactly.  This team has been pitiful since September last and Buck's certainly part of the problem.  Unless the direction of the rebuild continues to be "hope for a bunch of solo home runs", Buck's got to go.

 

He did great things for the team, but it's time to start fresh.



#4 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:40 AM

It's hard to be a stickler for fundamentals when none of your veteran players are fundamentally sound.  You can't bench everybody.



#5 weird-O

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:03 AM

I've formed an opinion of Buck, through observation, and reports from various media outlets. I'm going to leave out anything that could be considered a supposition on my part. But here is one critique that isn't a hunch, but rather, something we've seen on display for a few seasons now. Buck's loyalty to players he's friends with, or fond of, have hurt the team. I have to question if that's the guy you want in the dugout. What happens when a superior player comes up from the system, and outplays Mancini? Recent history tells us that player will not be given Mancini's playing time. 

 

*Mancini is a random name, and should not be taken as a literal example of favoritism.  


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#6 bnickle

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:47 AM

Lol. People really dont get that managers protect their players and always say nice things. Ive heard everything from Buck loves Beckham to.Buck loved Ubaldo. If you think hes really a fan of either youre just a naive fool.

#7 BSLSteveBirrer

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:07 AM

Lol. People really dont get that managers protect their players and always say nice things. Ive heard everything from Buck loves Beckham to.Buck loved Ubaldo. If you think hes really a fan of either youre just a naive fool.

Of course managers say nice things and protect their players. But if you don't think Buck takes this to an extreme and sticks with players far too long then its you who may be naive.....Chris Tillman ring a bell?



#8 bnickle

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:11 AM

No he doesnt. Geez

#9 BSLRobShields

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:32 AM

Of course managers say nice things and protect their players. But if you don't think Buck takes this to an extreme and sticks with players far too long then its you who may be naive.....Chris Tillman ring a bell?

You don't think other managers/coaches do this?  Can you provide evidence that Buck does it more than others?


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#10 weird-O

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:45 AM

You don't think other managers/coaches do this?  Can you provide evidence that Buck does it more than others?

Is it at all relevant how Buck stacks up against other mangers, on this issue?

 

If it was possible to actually quantify where Buck ranks on the "sticks with his guys too long" list, would it be justification? Does he get a pass on sticking with Reimold too long, because he only ranks, let's say, 26 out of 30 for playing favorites? Or should we not concern ourselves with what other managers do, and stay focused on what the best practices are for success of the Orioles? 


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#11 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:51 AM

I think Buck does it more than others, and I think it's one of his strengths (could also be a weakness).

Being loyal to guys, giving them extended opportunities to prove themselves (either way), and not burying people in the press has overall served him well in his career.

If there are negative ramifications of giving extended opps (that others in the clubhouse grow tired of seeing under-performers get chances);  I think that has been overcome through Buck's career by the confidence his players as a whole have had in him.



One of the themes we've seen in discussions about Buck the last few months is the notion that he can't change or adapt.

I don't agree with that.

He's an intelligent man, capable of self-evaluation.

Also, when he joined the O's (after his stays with NY, Arizona, Texas) there was lots of talk that he was a guy whose message must get lost quickly.  We had visions of him being this strict law and order guy. Some crusty old bastard.

Jones definitely had that impression early (late 2010) when Buck was first getting started.

What we saw, was that Buck had used his prior experiences and adapted. Made adjustments.

I imagine if asked to make new changes now, he'd be capable of doing so.

 

 

 

I don't have to have Buck back.  But I tend to doubt they'd improve on him.   If he wants to be back, and the EVP (Duquette or otherwise) want him back... it should happen.

If the EVP wants to move on, or Buck has any notion about not being fully vested in the rebuild... then move on.



#12 weird-O

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:02 AM

Chris's post touched on something interesting, "I don't have to have Buck back.  But I tend to doubt they'd improve on him."

 

Is it unlikely that someone else could do an equal or better job? 

 

I ask, because I don't know for sure. I've heard fans mention Girardi as a possible new manager. I wonder how he would do. I wouldn't exactly use his W-L record in NY as a guide, because a lot of success can be purchased. But what about his year in Miami? He did well down there. One thing that I noticed about Joe, is that he was often snippy with the NY media. He wouldn't face the same level of scrutiny in Baltimore. One complaint that Yankee fans had, was that he wasn't particularly skilled at handling a pitching staff. Which seems odd, given that he was a catcher. But that's also an obvious weakness of Buck's as well. So that's a push.   


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#13 ivanbalt

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:28 AM

Man, I used to think I was optimistic.  With some of the support Buck gets around here, you'd think the Orioles were still in the wildcard hunt, not on pace to lose 110 games.


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#14 BSLRobShields

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:29 AM

Is it at all relevant how Buck stacks up against other mangers, on this issue?

 

If it was possible to actually quantify where Back ranks on the "sticks with his guys too long" list, would it be justification? Does he get a pass on sticking with Reimold too long, because he only ranks, let's say, 26 out of 30 for playing favorites? Or should we not concern ourselves with what other managers do, and stay focused on what the best practices are for success of the Orioles? 

Yes, of course it is.

 

Because its something that all managers and coaches do.  Part of the reason they get to the pinnacle of their profession is loyalty.  This is a trait most, if not all, coaches have.  We see Buck everyday...we see what he has done, so it appears he does it way often.

 

They all do it.

 

My point?  Its silly to point this out as a detriment and a reason to fire him because guess what...the next guy will do the same exact thing!


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#15 bnickle

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:33 AM

Chris's post touched on something interesting, "I don't have to have Buck back. But I tend to doubt they'd improve on him."

Is it unlikely that someone else could do an equal or better job?

I ask, because I don't know for sure. I've heard fans mention Girardi as a possible new manager. I wonder how he would do. I wouldn't exactly use his W-L record in NY as a guide, because a lot of success can be purchased. But what about his year in Miami? He did well down there. One thing that I noticed about Joe, is that he was often snippy with the NY media. He wouldn't face the same level of scrutiny in Baltimore. One complaint that Yankee fans had, was that he wasn't particularly skilled at handling a pitching staff. Which seems odd, given that he was a catcher. But that's also an obvious weakness of Buck's as well. So that's a push.

Wait. Bucks weakness is handling a pitching staff. ROFL.

#16 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:40 AM

Is it at all relevant how Buck stacks up against other mangers, on this issue?

 

That's an odd question.

 

"Buck is overly loyal to his players"

 

"Is he actually any more loyal than other managers?"

 

"IRRELEVANT!"

 

Does that make any sense?



#17 BSLRobShields

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:59 AM

BTW, the loyalty aspect of things go overboard at times for these guys IMO.  

 

You have to allow what is going on in front of your face take precedent and not let the past effect your personal thoughts/relationships about someone...but it happens all the time.


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#18 weird-O

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:02 PM

Wait. Bucks weakness is handling a pitching staff. ROFL.

Well, a fully dedicated Buck apologist isn't going to see it. But yes, Buck has a weakness.


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#19 BSLSteveBirrer

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:04 PM

While there is zero way to really know this I suspect no other manager would have stuck with Tillman so long. I doubt any other manager would have wanted to bring him back after last year. Buck did.

 

Would I fire Buck over that? No of course not. Nor are there other decisions I would have individually fired Buck over (well with one exception). But at some point I want the manager to have some accountability when a team performs way under expectations.



#20 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:04 PM

Well, a fully dedicated Buck apologist isn't going to see it. But yes, Buck has a weakness.

 

Nobody here is a Buck apologist.  But we are mostly able to make counter arguments without just making shit up.






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