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Caps 2018-19


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#21 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 10:44 AM

Fairly certain I've never called for Trotz head, rather just overall pissed at the org for falling short. And no, I wouldn't want him gone if we don't win next year. Just like I don't want Buck gone. I've actually been far more loyal to Harbaugh than most too. And never turned on Gary. Once someone proves they have it in them, I'm actually pretty loyal.

 

It's the same characters defending the Caps organization here, just as they do on EVERYTHING (except Erat, how can you), so that part isn't surprising.

 

What is surprising, is that they don't appreciate his contributions here.

 

Jeremy, you speak of the last 4 years as an overall body of work:

-Most points in the NHL in that time span

-Most wins in the NHL in that time span

-Most President's Cup's 

-Stanley Cup Championship

 

By the way, he has the same number of Cups as Babcock... during this time frame, the only coach with a better resume is Sullivan with two Cups.

 

Very clearly, Trotz is a top 5 coach and should and will be treated as such. He finished the job for us, and deserved much better.


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"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#22 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:12 AM

Wasn't Oates universally lauded as a top assistant when we went out and got him?
@0TheRick0 (AKA The Rick)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#23 JeremyStrain

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:38 AM

I was never calling for his head,  I'll go back later and look through some of the posts but I don't recall many on here demanding Trotz be canned if any.
 

I've never once seen a post from you in regards to Trotz and the team choking.  Your responses to past playoff failures were always logical and level headed.  Hot goalie, injuries,  luck (it's part of the equation we saw it this playoffs) just to name a few, now that he is gone to see you refer to those seasons as he choked doesn't fly with me.
 
As far as Reirden goes, isn't that what assistants are supposed to do?  Focus on certain aspects of the team while the HC oversees the entire team something like a Defensive coordinator and the HC.
 
http://www.baltimore...012-13/?p=28756

 

 

http://www.baltimore...012-13/?p=32096

 


 
I'm not trying to pick on you here (there's plenty of decisions you could go back and throw in my face as well for how they've turned out) but you said alot of the same things about Oates.  Young, smart, respected, knows offense, should improve the PP and how did that turn out?

 

Could TR turn out great yes, but we don't know for sure.  Running the whole team is different from just focusing on parts of it.  Would TR have been willing to fly to Russia last Summer to have a chat with Ovie about what he needed to do to improve his game?  I think the Caps are taking a risk by doing this.

 

I wasn't trying to say that he was. Just pointing out that you can't talk about the TEAM choking and be excluding the head coach from that, and that's a LOT of what was said around here for years. It drove me so crazy people talking about the choking, tearing down the team, trading ovi etc. that I stopped posting in here so much for a while. It's just driving me crazy that people (and it's not just on here, so don't feel like I'm singling you guys out, you are just the only ones I can really talk about the Caps with) are incredulous that the team didn't do more to keep him, just because they won the cup this year. NO ONE was calling for him to get an extension before now, and I'm willing to bet if they lost in the playoffs again that no one would have been complaining if they let him move on. So why so different just because they won? It's the inverse of complaining that they make the playoffs but lose every year, and we all know I've LONG been in the camp that getting to the playoffs is the goal, where you have a chance to win, from there things have to break right, so of course I'm bummed they lose, but I understand there are a bunch of teams that are going to win and our team isn't going to do it over and over.

Trotz had every chance to stay and make about $2m per sure there are a bunch of guys making that, and some INSANE salaries out there now, but i personally wouldn't go anywhere near that. We don't know what the team's budget actually is, but it is a finite resource, and when you have a comparative in house option for a fraction of the cost, I will always go that way, it might be the difference between resigning Carlson or Wilson.

 

As for TR vs Oates, yep. Absolutely said he was a former player, and respected, also said he'd be great on offense. Didn't mention anything about defense, and that's where he was awful. At the time with a young team they needed a coach they knew and respected, and offense was our strong suit. We have no way of knowing how things will turn out, absolutely right, but we had no way of knowing Oates would be THAT BAD defensively, which is what cost him, they were trying to make up for the ALL defense approach of Hunter that Ovi HATED so they were looking for that big play offense, and a guy like TR could have made a difference on that staff, someone to get the D to play respectable (or at all). I'm pretty sure it was during that Oates reign that I had my first back and forth over Holtby. With someone saying he was bad and should be benched or traded or something, and my argument was that the D was so bad in front of him he was going to play poorly, it's a huge part of why he stunk for a part of this season. Our defense was young and learning, and took a while to get into NHL shape this season too.

 

To your point about assistants...sometimes. Some coaches like to have overall control, and then their assistants are just that, they run whatever part of practice or whatever the coach points them too. SOME coaches like to compartmentalize and will have specialty assistants focus on some aspects while they coach others. Trotz knew he was an offensive guy, so he has Korn to work with the goalies and they brought in TR to work with defense. Word has been the past couple years that our players love TR and wanted him to take over if a move was made, as it was debated a couple times in this 4 years. To your point, that trip about Trotz flying to russia, rumors were if he DIDN'T make that trip, he would have been fired. Like I said, I'm not saying Trotz is terrible, aside from promoting TR, I completely disagree with letting him go, I'm just saying it's not the end of the world, and it's not like the team had any control over it. You don't know if he would have signed if they offered him 5 years and $30m (he probably would) but we don't know what his relationship with BM is, he could have been looking forward to moving on this whole time for all we know. He's a great coach, and I wish him well, but I think we will be just fine with TR too...at least from a chemistry standpoint.


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#24 JeremyStrain

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:46 AM

Fairly certain I've never called for Trotz head, rather just overall pissed at the org for falling short. And no, I wouldn't want him gone if we don't win next year. Just like I don't want Buck gone. I've actually been far more loyal to Harbaugh than most too. And never turned on Gary. Once someone proves they have it in them, I'm actually pretty loyal.

 

It's the same characters defending the Caps organization here, just as they do on EVERYTHING (except Erat, how can you), so that part isn't surprising.

 

What is surprising, is that they don't appreciate his contributions here.

 

Jeremy, you speak of the last 4 years as an overall body of work:

-Most points in the NHL in that time span

-Most wins in the NHL in that time span

-Most President's Cup's 

-Stanley Cup Championship

 

By the way, he has the same number of Cups as Babcock... during this time frame, the only coach with a better resume is Sullivan with two Cups.

 

Very clearly, Trotz is a top 5 coach and should and will be treated as such. He finished the job for us, and deserved much better.

 

He quit. How does he deserve anything? He had a contract and walked away from it. He deserves exactly what he took for himself. I hope he does well for himself and gets paid, but you being the MOST outspoken person against the organization in that 4 year period and now slamming them for not forcing him to stay? I just don't get it.

 

I could go back and point out plenty of heated posts you've made trashing the team and org. and I'm sure there's something somewhere about Trotz too, but that's not the point of this. The point is to be THIS upset about HIM leaving on his own, is a little nuts isn't it? We had a good 4 year run with him. He was almost fired a few times during said contract. Don't know that I would have agreed with that move either, but I just can't get too upset that he quit and rolled out like that. He at any point this year or last year could have said, I want to stay here and I'd love to talk extension...but he never did. There's more to this story that none of us know or will ever know, but I can appreciate what he did for us, and move on. Again, like I said before, if they open this up and sign some other random coach, I'm probably just as upset as you guys, I don't think that's the move to make, but if the move was that they HAD to chose between TR and BT, I'm not going to get super upset about it.


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#25 JeremyStrain

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:48 AM

Wasn't Oates universally lauded as a top assistant when we went out and got him?

 

More by me than overall. The word that he was ready for a HC job, and I really liked the move as a former player, all-star, and offensive specialist...especially coming off that insane defensive system Hunter ran, BUT no one could have predicted how bad he'd be at working with goalies or defense. I don't know him personally so I don't know if he's one of those coaches that compartmentalizes or if he tries to run it all, weaknesses or not, but my impression is that he was the latter and it didn't work.


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#26 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:53 AM

Jeremy - you ask what's different now that they won the Cup?

For one, well... they won the Cup.

That's enough for me.

And the whole "he quit" thing just turns a blind eye to the fact that that isn't how championship winning coaches are treated. You and I both know that, so why do you keep going with the black and white, technically correct, he quit?
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"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#27 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:57 AM

And for you to bring up vitriolic game time reactions by me to try and negate my credibility on this isn't appreciated. Thanks. Just a different opinion/perspective. I didn't go after you for your Oates love affair. Completely pointless in this debate, it means nothing, and I will continue to wear my heart on my sleeve during sporting events.
@0TheRick0 (AKA The Rick)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#28 JeremyStrain

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:02 PM

Jeremy - you ask what's different now that they won the Cup?

For one, well... they won the Cup.

That's enough for me.

And the whole "he quit" thing just turns a blind eye to the fact that that isn't how championship winning coaches are treated. You and I both know that, so why do you keep going with the black and white, technically correct, he quit?

 

Because he could have stayed. He had a contract paying him about $2m a year. That's a hell of a lot more than any of us are making. He chose to leave, they didn't fire him. I'd have the same feelings if a player did it. I'm not going to feel sad for them. I don't like when people sign contracts and then don't honor them.

 

You just value the cup win more than I do. I'm glad they did it, but I'm not going to overlook my feelings on contracts because of it.


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#29 JeremyStrain

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:08 PM

And for you to bring up vitriolic game time reactions by me to try and negate my credibility on this isn't appreciated. Thanks. Just a different opinion/perspective. I didn't go after you for your Oates love affair. Completely pointless in this debate, it means nothing, and I will continue to wear my heart on my sleeve during sporting events.

 

I didn't go in on them, but I wasn't trying to negate your credibility. Like you said, you wear your heart on your sleeve. It's just very opposite for me.

 

I owned up to wanting Oates as coach, well...more accurately I knew it was coming WEEKS before it was public, so I had already had time to come around on it and support it by the time anyone knew and started talking about it.

 

Go ahead and keep it on your sleeve, I wouldn't want you to change, but to be fair you have to remember when you say things in the heat of the moment you may feel differently a couple months later when you've had time to calm down and process.


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#30 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:08 PM

Well, if Reirden is any good... he won't be here long. Because quality coaches regularly renegotiate their deals. And VERY regularly do so after winning their team a championship. Buck was extended prior to his contract expiring. Harbs was given a new, fancy contract after his SB. Can't remember Gary, but that title certainly bought him a ton of leeway and influence.

If Reirden wins the Cup next year, they BETTER not renegotiate his contract. That isn't the Capitals way.

Am I doing this right?

This is about far more than contracts and money, it's about disrespect, unprofessionalism, and a silly pride tug-of-war over who deserves more credit for finally getting over the hump.
@0TheRick0 (AKA The Rick)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#31 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:09 PM

This isn't heat of the moment, it's a well thought out and factual argument that's different than yours, so I'm just an irrational game threader I guess.
@0TheRick0 (AKA The Rick)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#32 JeremyStrain

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:15 PM

Well, if Reirden is any good... he won't be here long. Because quality coaches regularly renegotiate their deals. And VERY regularly do so after winning their team a championship. Buck was extended prior to his contract expiring. Harbs was given a new, fancy contract after his SB. Can't remember Gary, but that title certainly bought him a ton of leeway and influence.

If Reirden wins the Cup next year, they BETTER not renegotiate his contract. That isn't the Capitals way.

Am I doing this right?

This is about far more than contracts and money, it's about disrespect, unprofessionalism, and a silly pride tug-of-war over who deserves more credit for finally getting over the hump.

 

No apparently it's about you thinking that winning a cup and getting over a hump means that you are willing to reward them by tearing up their contract and redoing it, and I disagree.

 

Where does that end? Are you giving every player on the Ravens a raise after they won the SB? If you operate by giving out rewards on contracts like that and not honoring what you already have all you do is speed up cap crunches where you have to let good players go and make it harder to win more in the future.

 

I don't understand how you can say it's unprofessional in any way. Did they rip up his contract after he won? Did they trash him on the way out? Did they fight him over resigning and tie him up so he couldn't sign anywhere? How were they unprofessional?


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#33 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:18 PM

It's unprofessional to not even offer a new deal to the coach who brought home the banner you've been dying to hang in the rafters for decades.

I see this as rather black and white honestly, cheap ass unprofessional pride war is what this is.

Just hoping it doesn't end up costing them on the ice.

Reirden shouldn't ever feel comfortable here though. In fact, if he doesn't survive the second round next year, he really should be fired by the Caps standards, no?
@0TheRick0 (AKA The Rick)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#34 JeremyStrain

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:42 PM

It's unprofessional to not even offer a new deal to the coach who brought home the banner you've been dying to hang in the rafters for decades.

I see this as rather black and white honestly, cheap ass unprofessional pride war is what this is.

Just hoping it doesn't end up costing them on the ice.

Reirden shouldn't ever feel comfortable here though. In fact, if he doesn't survive the second round next year, he really should be fired by the Caps standards, no?

 

See I just think you put too much sentimentality into the win. And that's fair, I'm sure most people value it more highly than I do. I don't know why either, I think cause I grew up in the 80's when my teams won like 4 titles in 10 years and were constantly in the playoffs. 

 

I agree that I hope it doesn't cost them. Who knows if it will, too early to tell, but the business side of sports is a real thing, and it's huge.


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#35 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:46 PM

In fairness to the Capitals and to Ted and Mac... I was having a conversation a week ago offline with a good friend who is a Pens fan... I was telling him how they pushed the right buttons this year to get the most out of the team and out of Trotz. Not just the threat before the season that he needed to survive the 2nd round or else, but also putting into motion plans to promote Reirden, giving him assurances in lue of not allowing him to interview, things like that. But also the threat to break the team up mid-season when they were playing their worst. This caused the veterans to galvanize around Ovi for "one last honest run". On both the player personnel, and coaching fronts, Ted and Mac called the right plays this year, caused the right kind of disruption that manifested into fierce motivation and focus, and they deserve a lot of credit for that.

 

I think that while their tactics worked, now it was time to hug, share the credit, and keep this thing going. Pride got in the way. I don't think they have handled this well at all. But agree with most of everything else up until this point.


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@0TheRick0 (AKA The Rick)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#36 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:48 PM

And I'm not ignoring the business side; the contrary - the boon they will get financially from this far outweighs giving Trotz a new fancy, well deserved contract.


@0TheRick0 (AKA The Rick)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#37 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:49 PM

Aren’t hockey coaches largely expendible? I feel like there is more turnover there than in any other sport.

If Trotz wants to go make his mega bucks that’s fine.

I heard on the radio today that there is a rumor that Reardon had a lot to do with us winning the cup.

I still think they could have worked something out.

There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

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#38 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:51 PM

Aren’t hockey coaches largely expendible? I feel like there is more turnover there than in any other sport.

If Trotz wants to go make his mega bucks that’s fine.

I heard on the radio today that there is a rumor that Reardon had a lot to do with us winning the cup.

I still think they could have worked something out.

That could be the perception, I'm honestly not sure. But there are certainly coaching legends in this sport. Just as in any other sport. 


@0TheRick0 (AKA The Rick)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#39 JeremyStrain

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:51 PM

Aren’t hockey coaches largely expendible? I feel like there is more turnover there than in any other sport.

If Trotz wants to go make his mega bucks that’s fine.

I heard on the radio today that there is a rumor that Reardon had a lot to do with us winning the cup.

I still think they could have worked something out.

 

https://www.sbnation...-gerard-gallant


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#40 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 01:03 PM

https://www.sbnation...-gerard-gallant

Gotta love Florida firing Gallant mid-season, then him taking an expansion team to the SCF the next year. 

 

I'm not sure I'd say coaches are any more dime-a-dozen in the NHL than in other leagues though. Just maybe that in a league as volatile as the NHL, a lot more teams think they are closer than they really are.

 

Also not surprised to see the two leagues with the most playoff spots to lead the way there.


@0TheRick0 (AKA The Rick)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore




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