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Current Turgeon Thoughts


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#41 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 10:38 AM

I'm not enthused about hiring a guy you and I have just recently heard of.  That's not the type of candidate I'm interested in handing the reins over to.  If we can't afford to pay off Turgeon and bring in a real coach and real assistants, then you just keep Turgeon.

 

I don't know what the exact financial situation of the athletic department is.  But it's a public university that has to release all their records, so whatever the released documents are, that's the situation.  An article saying "they broke even" isn't an official document and i'd take it with a lot of skepticism, but the official state released documents that come out are something I'd take as meaningful.  I haven't seen those or been able to find them online.

 

It's possible the department is doing well enough that we can afford to buy him out.  I think it's more likely that we can't unless an outside donor steps up and gives money with the express purpose of it going towards Turgeon's buyout and payments.  Don't know for sure what the status is, of course, but given recent hardship the athletic department has had in terms of financials, I know which way feels more likely to me.

Some people graduate from mid-majors to top tier jobs and have success.  Some go from one prominent program to another with success. It's all in using the process and all the tools and resources to find the right guy, no matter where they are from.  

 

I'd be fine with Mack, though I think it'd be a lateral move at best for him. But if the goal is to save money, paying say $3.5M for two coaches versus $5-$6M by bringing in a bigger name, then you have to look at the mid-major level. 


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#42 Mackus

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 10:58 AM

I don't trust the athletic department to find the right small time guy.  Ideally someone steps up with the money, we can fire Turgeon, and then hire a prime candidate.

 

I'll keep Turgeon for another year or two over being limited to only being able to hire a guy for $1M a year and not pay his assistants much.  That's a lose-lose situation.  You're likely setting someone up for failure, but even if the guy has success, he may leave for more money elsewhere before you've got the capital to be able to offer him more to stay.

 

His contract status is the only justifiable reason for not canning Turgeon, IMO.  But it is a major reason that can't be written off as not a big deal.  If you'd prefer the best guy we can find for $1M over Turgeon, that's fair.   But I don't think that gets us closer to where we want to be.


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#43 Mike B

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 12:11 PM

I don't think anything happens to Turgeon at least until a new AD is named.

 

I don't hate the guy, but do not like the style he plays and I do not think, he puts a roster together well.  He recruits well, but I am not sure the people he recruits fit into the puzzle of putting the team together.

 

Game management is average at best....not as bad as some here think, IMO.

 

I think the play, freed Huerter was beautifully drawn up and the screen by Tomaic to free him was excellent.  Then he turns around and lets the in bounder get a free look.

Not my fault, I was yelling at the TV and Turgeon to put a guy on the baseline to make the in bounder run, but he must not have heard me.


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#44 Miller192

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 03:38 PM

The thought of seeing Gary walking onto the court at XC with a red tie and fist pump is enough to warm my heart on this cold day.  Make it happen!


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#45 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 09:09 PM

IMS: Turgeon said Wednesday that he doesn't pay attention to criticism from fans
https://maryland.247...-More-113847543



#46 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 06:06 PM

So I've been talking about this offline with some non-Terps fans and someone made the point about how you can't get too caught up in how they look because most college basketball doesn't look too great. Even top programs struggle regularly, despite coming away with key victories. Are we too hard on Turgeon because we are putting too much emphasis on the easy schedule and the margin (s) of victory? Talking about Turge's whole body of work here.

I still fall back on 0-15 on the road vs ranked teams, not ever finishing the year playing better than the beginning, etc. and just don't like him. Don't think he's the guy.

That said the players seem to love him and he seems like a class act so I hope I'm wrong. I'm not rooting for him to fail.

How would the following best case scenario make you feel:
@ Indiana - W
Michigan St - L
@ Purdue - L
Wisconsin W
@ Penn St W
Northwestern W
@ Nebraska W
Rutgers W
@ Northwestern W
Michigan W

Final: 23-9 (12-6)

That would get them into the tourney. This isn't what I think happens. I think they lose to who they should lose to, and drop a game or two they shouldn't. I think they go 21-11 (10-8).

But if the best case scenario plays out and they dance as an 8 or 9 seed, are you feeling like we were wrong and being too hard on Turge?
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#47 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 06:57 PM

I don't like his style of play. I'm not going to cry when he's gone.

 

Given his total body of work, I think there is an argument that he's one of the best 25 +/- HC's going... do respect what he accomplished at Wichita State, and Texas A&M.

 

Do respect the coaching staff he's put together... his hustle with recruiting.

 

Don't love him in-game.

 

Would like to see him point the finger at himself more often.

 

Think his OOC scheduling is an embarrassment.

 

Think he has a minimum of two more full seasons at the helm. If the Terps get back to the dance this year (for the 4th straight year)... after Jackson's injury, that's only going to increase the odds he sees out the remainder of his contract.

 

If Bruno and Jackson were to come back next year... MD has the chance to be very good. If they do some damage in the Big Ten (Reg season or BTT), or the NCAAT... that's going to significantly increase the odds he sees out his contract.

 

If Bruno and Jackson jump... and MD just gets to the NCAAT (either for a 5th straight year, or 4th time in 5 years)... he's definitely back for '19-'20 at the minimum.

 

He's not great.

You could do better.

You could easily do worse.

 

Would love to see MD finish this regular season 23-9, and 12-6. That (the Big Ten regular season record) would be an accomplishment to me given the current roster.

 

Like you... I'm thinking 10-8 or so... and MD needing to something of note in the Big Ten Tournament to potentially claw into the NCAAs.



#48 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 07:05 PM

Hard to disagree with anything you wrote... other than that my strong personal preference is to let the conviction of "Could do better" drive the administration. Either way, I guess I shouldn't be too much of a hater overall because until we do move on, it's not like we're in awful shape. In fact we're in better shape than when he got here. But they've gotta find a way to get the fans back. Otherwise, the hope of them being a perennial top 25 team is for naught anyway. Gotta have the culture, and it sucks right now.
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"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#49 Mackus

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 09:31 PM

Getting this team to 12-6 and in the tourney would mitigate all my complants about him this year. I still don't like a lot of the methods, but can't argue with that end result.

I don't think they finish with more than 8-10 Big Ten wins though and maybe don't even get an NIT invite. Really hope that is way wrong. But I don't see any big wins and I think they drop a few more hames they should/could win.

I'm open to future results changing my opinion, but currently I think the sooner he is replaced the better, even though I know it's not immediately realistic.

#50 Ricker Says

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 10:11 PM

It would alleviate all concerns even though the only top 25 win would be Michigan (At least in my scenario)? See I don't think just 12 wins is enough to erase my criticisms. If those 12 wins are impressive, and a couple against good teams, then I'm open to it, sure. But the conference is really bad right now. It's 6th in RPI, sandwiched between the Pac 12 and American Athletic. Finishing 8-2 with that schedule, while impressive on the surface, may not be satisfying enough given the circumstances. And btw, while losing Jackson certainly leaves a void for what we were doing, it's not like he was playing that well and there will probably be 30 or so tournament teams this year that wished they had the Terps talent.
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"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#51 BSLRobShields

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:11 AM

So I've been talking about this offline with some non-Terps fans and someone made the point about how you can't get too caught up in how they look because most college basketball doesn't look too great. Even top programs struggle regularly, despite coming away with key victories. Are we too hard on Turgeon because we are putting too much emphasis on the easy schedule and the margin (s) of victory? Talking about Turge's whole body of work here.

I still fall back on 0-15 on the road vs ranked teams, not ever finishing the year playing better than the beginning, etc. and just don't like him. Don't think he's the guy.

That said the players seem to love him and he seems like a class act so I hope I'm wrong. I'm not rooting for him to fail.

How would the following best case scenario make you feel:
@ Indiana - W
Michigan St - L
@ Purdue - L
Wisconsin W
@ Penn St W
Northwestern W
@ Nebraska W
Rutgers W
@ Northwestern W
Michigan W

Final: 23-9 (12-6)

That would get them into the tourney. This isn't what I think happens. I think they lose to who they should lose to, and drop a game or two they shouldn't. I think they go 21-11 (10-8).

But if the best case scenario plays out and they dance as an 8 or 9 seed, are you feeling like we were wrong and being too hard on Turge?

So what you are saying is if he continues to win at a high rate, you shouldn't really complain?  

 

That was my point.  He is winning a ton of games...But, as Mackus and Stoner have eluded to, you don't like his style.  Its not usually a "fun watch".

 

I still say it goes back to that more than anything else.

 

NOTE:  Still have to do better in the postseason.


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#52 Ricker Says

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:59 AM

I'm asking how other Terps fans feel... I think it may be silly to complain but understandable to want a better coach.


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"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#53 BSLRobShields

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 11:04 AM

I'm asking how other Terps fans feel... I think it may be silly to complain but understandable to want a better coach.

Chris put it right IMO.

 

Could you do better?  Possibly.  Could you do worse?  Likely....Its far more likely you do worse than do better with whoever you hire.

 

Would a top 10-15 coach come to MD?  Would MD pay the money needed to lure a top guy?


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#54 Mackus

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 05:16 PM

It would alleviate all concerns even though the only top 25 win would be Michigan (At least in my scenario)?

This is an obnoxious distinction for me to make, so sorry for that, but I chose the word 'mitigate' carefully instead of a word like 'alleviate'.

All of my complaints about him, which I think are valid, would be balanced out by the good job it would be (IMO) for Turgeon to coach the team to a 8-2 finish over the final 10 conference games. So I'd still be happy to see him go if it was possible, but I would think that an unbiased opinion (which mine is not) would likely think he would deserve more time if he brings this squad to the tourney (I think 12-6 gets us in).

That would be overachieving over the final 10 games and meeting preseason expectations despite the huge loss to injury.

#55 Miller192

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 11:12 PM

So what you are saying is if he continues to win at a high rate, you shouldn't really complain?  

 

That was my point.  He is winning a ton of games...But, as Mackus and Stoner have eluded to, you don't like his style.  Its not usually a "fun watch".

 

I still say it goes back to that more than anything else.

 

NOTE:  Still have to do better in the postseason.

 

Turgeon can win games against the also rans of the Big Ten.  He can recruit top HS players and take them and go beat a down trodden Minnesota. 

 

Can you honestly see any of his teams going to win on a neutral court against at Top 10 team in the tourney?  He can bring in the talent to do so, but as his record shows, he can't beat ranked teams.


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#56 BSLRobShields

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 08:54 AM

Turgeon can win games against the also rans of the Big Ten. He can recruit top HS players and take them and go beat a down trodden Minnesota.

Can you honestly see any of his teams going to win on a neutral court against at Top 10 team in the tourney? He can bring in the talent to do so, but as his record shows, he can't beat ranked teams.


Yes of course.

We see lesser coaches with lesser talent win against top teams in the tourney every year.
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#57 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 09:12 AM

Yes of course.

We see lesser coaches with lesser talent win against top teams in the tourney every year.

Maybe that doesn't make them lesser coaches then. 


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#58 Ricker Says

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 10:23 AM

Here is Turgeon's tournament resume everyone always loves to bring up:

 

Notable wins:

-2006 Tournament vs. #2 Tennessee in the 2nd round (with WSU)

 

All other appearances:

-2008 Tournament beat BYU, lost to UCLA in the 2nd round (with A&M)

-2009 Tournament beat BYU, lost to UCONN in the 2nd round (A&M)

-2010 Tournament beat Utah St. lost to Purdue in the 2nd round (A&M)

-2011 Tournament beat lost to FSU in the 1st round (A&M)

-2015 Tournament beat Valpo, lost to West Virginia (with MD)

-2016 Tournament beat South Dakota St. and Hawaii, lost to Kansas (MD)

-2017 Tournament lost to Xavier in the 1st round (MD)

 

Again, I think he beats up on bottom feeders to get in the dance... but doesn't have what it takes to beat the good teams. He's like 20 years into his head coaching career now, and he's consistently failed against good teams, even when coaching a ranked team himself. This isn't just a road game problem.

 

This is also the problem when looking at people's resume at a macro level. He's got a good resume. But when you peel the onion, there's nothing special here at all. 


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#59 Miller192

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 12:50 PM

Yes of course.

We see lesser coaches with lesser talent win against top teams in the tourney every year.

 

After 7 years, don't you think he should do it?  He only has two wins on a neutral court against ranked teams.

 

He's a MAC coach.


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#60 BSLRobShields

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 01:06 PM

After 7 years, don't you think he should do it? He only has two wins on a neutral court against ranked teams.

He's a MAC coach.


Sure, he should and like I said, I think if you want to fire because of tourney resume, that’s fine.

But I stand by my earlier point...you aren’t going to bring in someone who will win more than 80% of their games.

But someone who gives you more tourney wins? That’s very possible.

I don’t think MD should ever be out of the tourney. I don’t think they should have been worse than a team that is a borderline top 25 school. I think they should usually be a top 20 team.

I think every year they should be a team that is legitimately capable of getting into the second weekend of the NCAAT and I believe that they should be a team capable of a F4 run every once in a while.

If you arent that, you should have a different coach.
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