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BSL: The Ravens lack identity and direction, and it could force sweeping changes


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#41 Mackus

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 08:19 AM

Aside from Kubiak's offense, which wasn't the Greatest Show on Turf by any means, the offenses have sucked in Baltimore since 1997. How is that? How has a franchise gone 20 years with mediocre to terrible offenses? The players, the coordinators, the coaches change but the results largely remain the same. That's why I am kind of past the whole coordinator stuff and pointing the finger at the FO. This team needs a philosophy change that begins with the FO. Ozzie has done wonders for this organization but it's time to admit his failures. No coordinator could make this milquetoast offense good, especially with the injuries we've had. So I'm basically throwing my hands up in the air at this point. I dont see how any change can improve things so I am throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Nuke the team.

 

A huge part of that is where you spend your resources.  We've had huge commitments financially in the defense during that entire time you mention.  I don't have the numbers to back it up, but my guess is from '97 through when we paid Joe, that the defense has gotten a much larger percentage of the salary cap than the typical NFL team. 

 

Another part is the team has definitely had troubles drafting and developing skill position talent offensively.  We've done a good to great job at O-line and a great job at every level of the defense, but not really anywhere else.  1-for-the-franchise in finding QBs.  0-for-franchise in finding #1 receivers and only 1 other simply starting caliber WR.  2 great running backs.  1 great and 1 good tight end. 



#42 esporter

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:12 AM

It's a problem. And the performance of the defense to this point in the year is in excusable with the resources tied up in that side of the ball.

 

Time to admit this team is extremely bad. We lost to Mitch Trubisky and Case Keenum. We are likely to lose against Matt Moore and Brett Hundley too before this is all said and done.


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#43 NewMarketSean

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:15 AM

It's a problem. And the performance of the defense to this point in the year is in excusable with the resources tied up in that side of the ball.

 

Time to admit this team is extremely bad. We lost to Mitch Trubisky and Case Keenum. We are likely to lose against Matt Moore and Brett Hundley too before this is all said and done.

Yup. That's one thing you could always count on the Ravens to do -- beat the also ran QB's of the league. But even that is not a certainty at this point. I'm shocked we beat EJ Manuel on the road.


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#44 Mackus

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:18 AM

The schedule is the easiest I can ever recall.  I think we're gonna end up with a better record than 2015, especially as we get some pieces back from injury down the stretch, but the team is worse. 



#45 BSLRobShields

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:24 AM

I think the defense being as bad as they are is worse than the offense.

 

With the QBs they have played and will play, teams shouldn't be moving the ball.  The offense shouldn't be playing from behind.  The ST and defense should be giving the team shorter fields, more plays, etc...

 

The offense is bad...but the defense is easily the bigger disappointment.  

 

They are getting shredded up front.  That's terrible.  


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#46 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:28 AM

I think the defense being as bad as they are is worse than the offense.

 

With the QBs they have played and will play, teams shouldn't be moving the ball.  The offense shouldn't be playing from behind.  The ST and defense should be giving the team shorter fields, more plays, etc...

 

The offense is bad...but the defense is easily the bigger disappointment.  

 

They are getting shredded up front.  That's terrible.  

 


In the preseason I said that my biggest reservation with the team (aside from the general lack of playmakers / elite talent) was that if the offense was not average ish... that would take away from the defense. 

My hope was that offense could be around average (which I said was their upside) and that the defense could be elite. 

I think with the offense being a dumpster fire (and certainly the injuries are playing a factor)... that has impacted the defense. 

This defense was never going to be the 2000 Ravens.  They weren't ever going to be good enough to hold teams down like that... but if the offense was better, I suspect they would be better... and possibly one of the best defenses in the league today. 

(Do agree with Nickle that the defensive team speed isn't great... but again injuries are impacting there as well).



#47 BSLRobShields

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:30 AM


In the preseason I said that my biggest reservation with the team (aside from the general lack of playmakers / elite talent) was that if the offense was not average ish... that would take away from the defense. 

My hope was that offense could be around average (which I said was their upside) and that the defense could be elite. 

I think with the offense being a dumpster fire (and certainly the injuries are playing a factor)... that has impacted the defense. 

This defense was never going to be the 2000 Ravens.  They weren't ever going to be good enough to hold teams down like that... but if the offense was better, I suspect they would be better... and possibly one of the best defenses in the league today. 

(Do agree with Nickle that the defensive team speed isn't great... but again injuries are impacting there as well).

The offense has been an issue but the defense is sucking ass even early in games.

 

This isn't a situation where the defense is just on the field all game long and are wearing down late.  They have been terrible from outset in many of these games.


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#48 esporter

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:39 AM

I agree the defense has been worse than just "oh they're on the field too much and in bad field position situations." They've sucked. 

 

Case Keenum with no Diggs or Cook should not have even sniffed the red zone against this unit on paper.


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#49 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:42 AM

The offense has been an issue but the defense is sucking ass even early in games.

 

This isn't a situation where the defense is just on the field all game long and are wearing down late.  They have been terrible from outset in many of these games.

 

 

 

That's fair... but the speed in the Secondary is injured. 

You've had lots of time without Williams, Urban, etc on the line. 

As you've pointed out, ILB has been an issue. 


The primary issue imo with the defense is that there isn't enough consistent pressure. 
I was hoping that Suggs, Judon, Williams, Z. Smith....  that they'd be sent on more seek and destroy missions. 

You bring the pressure, and you can get burned....   Pees imo prefers to play a bend not break. Make teams go down the field.  I can't say that doesn't have some merit, but I generally don't like the approach. 

I think the more aggressive you are, that has a positive impact mentality wise. 

 

 

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Ravens defense played best this year when the offense was able to sustain a few long drives.  Of course they were also generating a huge amount of turnovers.... so, chicken / egg.



#50 BSLRobShields

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:46 AM

I think we just need to acknowledge that the talent on the defensive side of the ball is either extremely inexperienced or its just not that good.

 

Judon and Z Smith are nothing special.

 

Tim Williams needs to play more but he has to get healthy too.  When he is back, he needs more snaps.  So does Bowser.  Start getting these guys really playing time.

 

We saw yesterday that the run defense had/has bigger issues than BWill not being in there.  

 

Correa and Kaufusi are bums.  


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#51 BSLRobShields

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:50 AM

Mentally, the offense could be hurting the defense.

 

http://www.espn.com/...eddle-says-zero

 

But the defense has played like shit.


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#52 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:56 AM

I think we just need to acknowledge that the talent on the defensive side of the ball is either extremely inexperienced or its just not that good.

 

Judon and Z Smith are nothing special.

 

Tim Williams needs to play more but he has to get healthy too.  When he is back, he needs more snaps.  So does Bowser.  Start getting these guys really playing time.

 

We saw yesterday that the run defense had/has bigger issues than BWill not being in there.  

 

Correa and Kaufusi are bums.  

 

If you decide the talent is just not good on the defensive side of the ball, then it's an easy decision to completely gut the team. 

Probably the right decision overall regardless. 

I don't know what Correa is, I don't think he's played enough. He's supposed to be a guy that can go and get the QB, and run. But it shouldn't be surprising that he's adjusting to life inside. It's a different position. 

Kaufusi wasn't supposed to be a pass rusher. He's supposed to be a guy that can set the edge. If he can't do that, that's a problem. 

I like Judon and Z. Smith... agree that neither are special. Do think they can help a roster, especially if utilized better. 

Tim Williams, we will see. 

Bowser, I think your idea of ILB has merit. That will also be an adjustment though.



#53 Hooded Viper

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:02 AM

The buzzards are already swarming around Chuck Pagano and he would be my choice for D Coordinator next season. He and Harbs have a good relationship, I believe, so it isn't out of the realm of possibility. I also can't see Hue Jackson surviving the off season as the HC for the Browns. I would jump at bringing him in to be my O Coordinator. That would give you 2 strong coordinators that have very little if any option going forward to be head coaches.

I also agree, the D has been a real disappointment given the resources that have been spent on that side of the ball.
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#54 BSLRobShields

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:18 AM

If you decide the talent is just not good on the defensive side of the ball, then it's an easy decision to completely gut the team. 

Probably the right decision overall regardless. 

I don't know what Correa is, I don't think he's played enough. He's supposed to be a guy that can go and get the QB, and run. But it shouldn't be surprising that he's adjusting to life inside. It's a different position. 

Kaufusi wasn't supposed to be a pass rusher. He's supposed to be a guy that can set the edge. If he can't do that, that's a problem. 

I like Judon and Z. Smith... agree that neither are special. Do think they can help a roster, especially if utilized better. 

Tim Williams, we will see. 

Bowser, I think your idea of ILB has merit. That will also be an adjustment though.

The fact that BK and KC can't even get on the field is enough for me to know they aren't cutting it in practice, much less in games.

 

I think you have very good corners, BWill is good and CJ is good but overrated.  Other than that, you have guys that are either unknowns, busts or just nothing more than depth.  You have no game changers on defense.

 

Either safety is fine but they don't compliment each other well at all.


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#55 BSLRobShields

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:19 AM

You have a short week this week...and then you have the mini bye.  

 

A shitty effort on Thursday could mean some heads are going to roll this week.


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#56 Mackus

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:24 AM

The buzzards are already swarming around Chuck Pagano and he would be my choice for D Coordinator next season. He and Harbs have a good relationship, I believe, so it isn't out of the realm of possibility. I also can't see Hue Jackson surviving the off season as the HC for the Browns. I would jump at bringing him in to be my O Coordinator. That would give you 2 strong coordinators that have very little if any option going forward to be head coaches.

I also agree, the D has been a real disappointment given the resources that have been spent on that side of the ball.

 

I like the idea of both Pagano and Jackson as coordinators, but I don't think Harbaugh gets a chance to pick new coordinators.  If we make a change at head coach, there is some concern about a rookie head coach potentially having an issue with a pair of former head coaches as his coordinators.  That's probably more about the ego and professionalism of the coordinators rather than the confidence of the new head coach.


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#57 BSLRobShields

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:24 AM

I do think when you look at some of the decisions that have been made the last few years, you see the failure of the defense, etc...that you can legitimately start to question the FO for the first time.

 

Now, as I said last week, let's see how the young guys develop and play in the second half.  We should see an uptick in play from many of these guys as the season goes on.  If not, a total house cleaning may not be the worst thing.


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#58 Mackus

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:56 AM

I'd fire Harbaugh and keep Ozzie/DeCosta, but I don't think anyone who wants to completely clean house is being unreasonable.  The lack of results the past few years, including some rough free agent contracts and sub-par drafting, certainly could add up to being fireable performance.



#59 BSLRobShields

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 11:06 AM

I'd fire Harbaugh and keep Ozzie/DeCosta, but I don't think anyone who wants to completely clean house is being unreasonable.  The lack of results the past few years, including some rough free agent contracts and sub-par drafting, certainly could add up to being fireable performance.

Yea, I would be ok with keeping the FO intact.  However, there are legit reasons to move on there but I tend to think you keep that staff together.


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#60 BSLGabeFerguson

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 12:42 PM

The defense playing like crap is really strange because it's mostly just the run defense (covering TEs has also been a problem), which has been a strength forever in Baltimore and for some reason has just fallen off a cliff this year.

 

The injuries to the DL have definitely hurt, but B Will came back this past week and the run D was still awful. I really think the problem lies in the LBs and Safeties. Tony Jefferson was supposed to be the best run defending safety in the league but he has been a complete bust. Weddle has gone from one the best in the league to one of the worst. Mosley and Onwuasor have been bad as well (50th and 54th in run defense by PFF). It's really hard to diagnose what happened here.

 

Maybe Jernigan was more impactful than we realized as well.


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