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BSL: Ravens Missing a staple of the WCO


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#1 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 05:17 PM

http://baltimorespor...t-coast-system/

 

The offense is hardly to blame for the 1-4 record. But a more efficient passing game could have helped at times. 

 

With a Joe Flacco extension in the works, you want to make sure the passing game in clicking. Despite the poor receivers and young tight ends, I look at an area Marc Trestman and Joe Flacco are lacking in. 


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#2 BSLRobShields

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 07:00 PM

Not using the middle of the field is incredibly irritating.

That's where you create matchup issues.
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#3 Bmore Irish

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 07:09 PM

It would certainly go a long way in getting the tight ends more involved.
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#4 BSLGabeFerguson

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 07:20 PM

I remember back to 2012 when Caldwell took over for Cameron, he immediately called far more plays that implemented the middle of the field and it took the offense to another level. Boldin and Pitta were exceptional at finding space and making catches in tight windows over the middle.

 

I think Maxx Williams can be a Pitta type of receiver, but he has a ways to go imo. That first play Mike broke down makes me wonder if Maxx ran a poor route. If you look at the two frames pictured, he sits down right in the middle of the field at first, but by the second frame he had drifted almost to hash mark in the direction of Steve Smith's route. If he had drifted the other way, there would have been a wide open throwing lane and a huge YAC opportunity for Smith. Now I don't know the play design, but it seems strange that two routes would be designed to intersect like that. My guess is Williams tried to follow Flacco's body and present himself as a target, but this ended up taking away the primary read in Steve Smith.


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#5 BSLRobShields

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 07:21 PM

Yea and then Caldwell didn't do that in 2013..very odd.
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#6 Dupin

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 07:31 PM

Yea and then Caldwell didn't do that in 2013..very odd.

 

To be fair, Pitta was hurt and Boldin was gone.  Still, after watching some really nice OC work in that playoff run you'd expect more.

 

On those same lines, Gilmore being hurt isn't helping things.



#7 BSLRobShields

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 07:35 PM

Ya but still....I don't care who you have catching the ball, they are better off doing it vs linebackers and safeties than corners on the outside.
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#8 esporter

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 07:50 PM

Some great points here, Mike.

 

I too get extraordinarily frustrated with the 2-3 yard out route. It takes more time than you'd think to develop, and is an exceptionally hard throw for the QB (like you said, he may have to throw it 15-20 yards at a severe angle), and there's usually limited YAC opportunity because of the sideline. It borders on idiotic, frankly.


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#9 Biggsy

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 08:09 PM

I remember back to 2012 when Caldwell took over for Cameron, he immediately called far more plays that implemented the middle of the field and it took the offense to another level. Boldin and Pitta were exceptional at finding space and making catches in tight windows over the middle.

I think Maxx Williams can be a Pitta type of receiver, but he has a ways to go imo. That first play Mike broke down makes me wonder if Maxx ran a poor route. If you look at the two frames pictured, he sits down right in the middle of the field at first, but by the second frame he had drifted almost to hash mark in the direction of Steve Smith's route. If he had drifted the other way, there would have been a wide open throwing lane and a huge YAC opportunity for Smith. Now I don't know the play design, but it seems strange that two routes would be designed to intersect like that. My guess is Williams tried to follow Flacco's body and present himself as a target, but this ended up taking away the primary read in Steve Smith.


Honestly, I think Smith Sr. is the one who messed up there. Not Williams. He did his job perfectly. Sat in the middle and took up the attention of two defenders. After his initial route, Smith should have see the wide open area behind Williams and taken off.

#10 BSLGabeFerguson

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 08:18 PM

Honestly, I think Smith Sr. is the one who messed up there. Not Williams. He did his job perfectly. Sat in the middle and took up the attention of two defenders. After his initial route, Smith should have see the wide open area behind Williams and taken off.


Pretty sure the play was designed to get Smith open. For him to sell his fake out and then cut across the entire formation would have taken a long time to develop. This was a 3rd and long, but not that long. If Williams is on the opposite hash it's likely a 20+ yard gain.
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#11 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 08:23 PM

Honestly, I think Smith Sr. is the one who messed up there. Not Williams. He did his job perfectly. Sat in the middle and took up the attention of two defenders. After his initial route, Smith should have see the wide open area behind Williams and taken off.



I think you're right. It isnt common to run a five yard out, then right back in. Like he knew he messed up.
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#12 Biggsy

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 12:45 AM


Pretty sure the play was designed to get Smith open. For him to sell his fake out and then cut across the entire formation would have taken a long time to develop. This was a 3rd and long, but not that long. If Williams is on the opposite hash it's likely a 20+ yard gain.


Neither one of us knows the actual play design. But football logic states Williams ran the right route and Smith either ran the wrong route or didn't run his route to the right depth. Even vets like Smith can blow a route. Williams route is a common route used to keep a MLB from getting too deep in his zone and opening up a huge gap between him and the saftey help.

#13 bnickle

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 01:31 PM

https://www.profootb...flacco-edition/

 

 

Trestman is a problem. Not the only problem, but a problem. 



#14 esporter

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 01:50 PM

https://www.profootb...flacco-edition/

 

 

Trestman is a problem. Not the only problem, but a problem. 

 

I'm not sure how much I buy into this. I don't know that Trestman is great or anything, but I don't think you can overstate the impact of the complete lack of weapons on this offense. And not just weapons, but really the lack of any sort of reliable skill position players outside of Steve Smith, who has been hurt.


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#15 bnickle

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 01:56 PM

really wish we had found a job for Kyle Shanahan last year under Kubiak. He'd look real nice right now running that same system in year two for Joe. 



#16 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 02:34 PM

https://www.profootb...flacco-edition/
 
 
Trestman is a problem. Not the only problem, but a problem. 

 
I'm not sure how much I buy into this. I don't know that Trestman is great or anything, but I don't think you can overstate the impact of the complete lack of weapons on this offense. And not just weapons, but really the lack of any sort of reliable skill position players outside of Steve Smith, who has been hurt.


I mean we can nit pick from game to game. Should have ran it more in Cleveland. Wanna use the middle of the field more.

Overall I am fine with the job Trestman has done. He makes adjustments. In key spots he often goes to a play the defense hasnt seen yet. There is some creativity there which we have begged for for years.

If we gave out grades, I'd give him a B.
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#17 BSLRobShields

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Posted 17 October 2015 - 07:06 AM

https://www.profootb...flacco-edition/


Trestman is a problem. Not the only problem, but a problem.


Well, it is interesting.

I think Joe can be better on these short throws. The problem is, if you don't have the guys who win at the LOS, those throws can't be successful because of the timing it takes to be successful.
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#18 ShawnBrubaker

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Posted 17 October 2015 - 08:52 AM

Totally agree with you Mike. Something we've been calling for for a while. But I don't buy that Trestman is an issue. With the talent level on this offense, to be ranked as highly both in the counting stats and the analytics is a minor miracle. Trestman deserves credit for that. There have been some individual play calls I didn't get, but that will be the case with any OC. A lot of Ravens fans were on Kubiak for the same reasons as Trestman.


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#19 bnickle

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Posted 17 October 2015 - 10:09 AM

Well, it is interesting.

I think Joe can be better on these short throws. The problem is, if you don't have the guys who win at the LOS, those throws can't be successful because of the timing it takes to be successful.

Joe is not accurate enough on short passes and the middle of the field is never been a strong suit either. The further we get away from the Cam Cameron era the more I realize he had Joe pegged pretty well. Should have gave Joe more freedom to audible. Should have made more adjustments. Shouldn't have pissed the rest of the offensive players off either. Time to move on? Yeah. In regards to knowing what was good for Joe he was more often right. He needs a good running game. He should be working outside the hashes more than the middle of the field, he should be pushing the ball down the field on throws. Not shorter timing patterns.

#20 primetime

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Posted 17 October 2015 - 10:17 AM

A little off topic, in the video that Nickle posted, I saw the comment about "elevating WRs like A-Rod or Brady can". Brady didn't start putting up eye popping numbers until they brought in Randy Moss, then followed with the Hernandez/Gronk duo, and now Gronk by himself. Over the last few years, we've seen how different New England's offense is without Gronkowski.

 

Rodgers, is a better QB than Brady, IMO; at least from a physical standpoint. Rodgers has a better arm, more athletic, etc. He also has not been exactly bereft of talent during his days in Green Bay (Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Cobb, Finley, etc), with many of those guys being there for consecutive years at different points. It also helps both Rodgers and Brady that there has been no change to the offensive system their entire starting careers. Both GB and NE have changed coordinators but not their offense. Consistency is key.

 

Back on topic, I think when dealing with so many factors on the offensive side of the ball; injuries, new/inexperienced players, new system or at least a tweaked system with new terminology; you're going to need time to develop things.

 

When you're running out an undrafted guy, a journeyman, a guy off the P squad, a cast off from the Rams, rookies at TE and a 6th rounder who played in a triple option, you're inevitably going to see issues with route running. Whether it's in regards to precision, timing, getting proper depth, knowing when to sit down in zone or flow away from coverage, etc; there are going to be problems with consistency and execution. As a play caller, you probably try to simplify things for your pass catchers, which means quick outs and stuff to that effect.

 

Perhaps as the running game gets on track, as we get healthier and guys can some experience in the finer points of the game, we see an increase in the use of the middle of the field. Combine that with Flacco being confident that guys are going to be where they're supposed to be based on his read of the coverage.


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