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BSL: Who would you prefer over Flacco...


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#21 BSLRobShields

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 02:41 PM

He had Golden Tate who was awesome last year in Detroit. He had Percy Harvin who was a stud in Minnesota. Doug Baldwin isn't terrible either and he had a 2nd round pick in Paul Richardson. So he hasn't had a great WR corps, but it's not that much different than what Flacco has had to work with for instance.

Yea, he barely had Harvin and when he did, he was never fully healthy.

 

Tate is ok...puts up better numbers in a Detroit offense that goes pass crazy and has Megatron to take attention away from him.


The other guys are ok.

 

Flacco has worked with better WR...easily.  Torrey, S Smith, Mason, Boldin...even Pitta.  All better.


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#22 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 02:44 PM

It would seem logical that a guy having poor vision probably takes longer to get rid of the ball. Right? The top five guys in average time to attempt in the pocket are...

 

Wilson - 2.85 secs (5'11")

G. Smith - 2.79  (6'3")

Romo - 2.73 (6'2")

Luck - 2.72 (6'4")

Kaep - 2.68 (6'4")

 

Three runners, and two prototypical quarterbacks. So I guess Luck and Romo lack vision too? Other tall QBs hang around in the pocket about as long as Wilson. Could also be other variables at play, a case of poor route running by their receivers. Or... Four of those five above, Smith being the odd man out, rank in the top six in deep ball %, So that could be why they hang in the pocket so long. 

 

Since Wilson stays in the pocket longer than anyone, it tells me he doesn't bail until the last second, when he has to. He knows he can use his legs, but doesn't make it his primary weapon. People often forget Luck is mobile too, but his legs aren't the primary weapon.

 

He gets extra credit, extra boost in my rankings for the year to come for having one, should be two rings. Yeah, he threw a pick to lose one, but I wouldn't let one single play define anybody. He's got that something you can't define, like Joe has, to come up big more often then not when the pressure is on, unlike Cam, Rivers, Ryan, and others, which is why I have him higher too.

 

All that said, I wouldn't have Wilson as high as #2 for 2015 had they not signed Jimmy Graham. 


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#23 BSLRobShields

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 03:14 PM

I mean, this question depends on a lot of things.

 

Where are you playing?  What division?  Who are your receivers?

 

I think the Ravens are better off with Flacco in the postseason than Denver is with Manning.

 

But if the question was Joe vs Manning if you are playing in a dome, I still take Manning.

 

Since the Ravens play in a shitty weather city and a shitty weather division, I would say Joe's arm is a huge asset and is a big reason that he performs so well in the postseason...his arm is essentially immune to the elements.

 

Would you want Luck more?  Luck makes a ton of mistakes still but he throws it a lot more, has no running game and a shit Oline.  

 

That's really the issue here.  How do you rate guys when they are in a totally different situation.

 

The Ravens are in great shape with Joe for a while now and that's all that matters.

 

Joe is somewhere in the 7-12 range IMO, with the differences being very minimal between 7 and 12.


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#24 Dupin

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 04:06 PM

When I watch him, I only see him flee the pocket when it's necessary, like when he feels pressure. He got pressured more than any other QB last year, and still managed to be accurate under pressure 66.7% of the time. Good for seventh best. Other guys tend to think run before pass like Kaepernick. I don't see that from him.

Also, Wilson was third in accuracy on deep passes, and attempted the seventh most in the league. So he can sling it.

I don't think height is as much of an issue, when many much taller QBs had more balls batted down.

Add another year of maturity to his previous success, along with adding Jimmy Graham...Wilson should have a monster year.


I doubt he'll have a monster year. That team is not built around him. That offense isn't even built around him. That's a run first team, he's going to be towards the bottom of the league in attempts like he always is.

Batted balls is more an indication of release point than anything.

He does a lot of things well and clearly has a desire to play the position correctly, which is more than can be said of Kaep, RG-ME, and Newton. Doesn't change the fact that he has some limitations. He's a guy that gets an exorbitant amount of phrase for various reasons. That and his annoying media personality are what I dislike about him.

#25 BSLGabeFerguson

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 04:50 PM

Yea, he barely had Harvin and when he did, he was never fully healthy.

Tate is ok...puts up better numbers in a Detroit offense that goes pass crazy and has Megatron to take attention away from him.

The other guys are ok.

Flacco has worked with better WR...easily. Torrey, S Smith, Mason, Boldin...even Pitta. All better.


He had healthy Harvin last season, and the team traded him. Why? Stuff came out about him being a bad teammate, but maybe Wilson didn't have chemistry with him or wasn't able to utilize his skill set in the offense that is built around Lynch.

Golden Tate is a better WR than anyone Flacco has had to throw to, and Harvin might be as well if you look at what he was able to do in Minnesota with a terrible QB.

Mason at the end of his career. Pitta for one healthy season where he wasn't even the starting TE. Boldin was good, but also very inconsistent and limited. Never used properly in Cam's offense. Torrey is a deep threat, but not a well rounded WR. Flacco's receivers had the second most drops in the NFL last year with 37, Wilson's receivers dropped 19. Heck, 35 year old Steve Smith is probably the best WR Flacco has ever had to throw to.
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#26 BSLGabeFerguson

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 05:07 PM

It would seem logical that a guy having poor vision probably takes longer to get rid of the ball. Right? The top five guys in average time to attempt in the pocket are...

Wilson - 2.85 secs (5'11")
G. Smith - 2.79 (6'3")
Romo - 2.73 (6'2")
Luck - 2.72 (6'4")
Kaep - 2.68 (6'4")

Three runners, and two prototypical quarterbacks. So I guess Luck and Romo lack vision too? Other tall QBs hang around in the pocket about as long as Wilson. Could also be other variables at play, a case of poor route running by their receivers. Or... Four of those five above, Smith being the odd man out, rank in the top six in deep ball %, So that could be why they hang in the pocket so long.

Since Wilson stays in the pocket longer than anyone, it tells me he doesn't bail until the last second, when he has to. He knows he can use his legs, but doesn't make it his primary weapon. People often forget Luck is mobile too, but his legs aren't the primary weapon.

He gets extra credit, extra boost in my rankings for the year to come for having one, should be two rings. Yeah, he threw a pick to lose one, but I wouldn't let one single play define anybody. He's got that something you can't define, like Joe has, to come up big more often then not when the pressure is on, unlike Cam, Rivers, Ryan, and others, which is why I have him higher too.

All that said, I wouldn't have Wilson as high as #2 for 2015 had they not signed Jimmy Graham.


There are a lot of variables about why a QB holds onto the ball, it could be great protection or it could be WRs not getting open, or it could be a lack of vision/making reads. For Wilson it's definitely not the first, and probably a mixture of the 2nd two. For Romo, it's probably mostly just having the luxury of playing behind a great OL in an offense with lots of deep developing routes. Wilson, Smith, and Kaepernick are all young QBs who struggle to make progressions and read the field while Luck extends plays and waits for receivers to get open. He's like Big Ben before Haley came.

I'm not going to give Wilson credit for should have winning a second SB when a) it was his mistake that cost the game and b) he was incredibly lucky to even be in yhe SB after one of the worst Championship game performances I have ever seen from a QB. Even the first SB victory, it was mostly a win for the defense. Wilson made a few plays but Percy Harvin was a more valuable offensive piece in that game than Wilson.

I'm also skeptical about how big of a difference maker Jimmy Graham will be. He's soft and can be taken out of games by physical play. He's certainly an upgrade over what they had at TE, but I don't expect Wilson's passing numbers to take a massive uptick because of him.
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#27 BSLRobShields

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 05:45 PM

Tate is not better than anyone Joe has thrown too.
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#28 Biggsy

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 12:19 AM

Tate is not better than anyone Joe has thrown too.


#1's could be arguable, most likely edge goes to Mason/Smith/Boldin. However, Tate is a better overall WR than Torrey, and he blows away every other reciever on our roster. Brown, Aiken, Camp ect. couldn't hold Tates jock. None of them are putting up 1300 yards in the NFL.

#29 Biggsy

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 12:25 AM

As for Wilson, he is great when he is moving around. And he's great against teams that can't play tight bump and run. He plays in an offense that is perfect for him. He has a top 3 RB that pounds out yardage and is the first priority to stop for defenses. And his passes tend to be quick, one read passes much like Chip Kelly's offense. He goes downfield after teams creep up to stack the box or try to stop the quick passing game. And give the man credit, he makes you pay more often than not.

But the blueprint for Wilson is very similar as it was for Vick. Contain him and make him beat you from the pocket.

#30 BSLGabeFerguson

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 07:46 PM

Tate is not better than anyone Joe has thrown too.


Meh, it's okay to disagree if you like. He's definitely more talented in terms of physical ability. He might not have the career of Boldin/Mason but those guys were past their prime when Flacco was passing to them.

My point is that Wilson has had more talent around him then often given credit for. If you watched the SB last year you could see the type of plays his WRs made for him even if they were UDFAs.
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#31 BSLRobShields

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 10:36 PM

Meh, it's okay to disagree if you like. He's definitely more talented in terms of physical ability. He might not have the career of Boldin/Mason but those guys were past their prime when Flacco was passing to them.

My point is that Wilson has had more talent around him then often given credit for. If you watched the SB last year you could see the type of plays his WRs made for him even if they were UDFAs.


He has had some talent...probably at least half the QBs have had more.

On top of that, his Oline has sucked for a few years, so it's not like he has gotten a ton of time either.
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