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Heyman: Cardinals Say No To Hardy for Miller


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#1 Greg Pappas

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 08:44 AM

http://www.cbssports...er-for-jj-hardy

I love this line of thinking, and would be pleased to see the O's eventually deal for Miller.
 

The Orioles and Cardinals had trade talks revolving around Shelby Miller and J.J. Hardy, but St. Louis told Baltimore there's no deal to be made.
 
There'd been some buzz that the Cardinals might consider moving Miller despite his brilliant rookie campaign and immense talent, but there was no suggestion of such an interest in this dialogue.
 
Hardy's value never has been higgher, as he won both the Silver Slugger and Gold Glove while hitting 25 home runs in 2013, and Baltimore would only consider parting with him for a terrific young pitcher. The Cardinals close the doors on nothing, but it's a source of discussion here at the baseball GM Meetings why they'd even think about trading Miller.

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#2 Dr. FLK

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:01 AM

They can't deal JJ.  It would break the heart of my 5 year old.


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#3 BSLBobPhelan

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:08 AM

I love hearing we're trying to sell high. Between the Cardinals and Pirates we might be able to get one to bite on a good deal for us.
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#4 JeffLong

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:48 AM

I love hearing we're trying to sell high. Between the Cardinals and Pirates we might be able to get one to bite on a good deal for us.

 

Taillon for Hardy?


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#5 BSLBobPhelan

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:00 AM

I love hearing we're trying to sell high. Between the Cardinals and Pirates we might be able to get one to bite on a good deal for us.
Taillon for Hardy?
Works for me.
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#6 dude

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:16 AM

I'd actually rather have Bell, Sanchez and their 2B than Taillon....

 

Nothing wrong with Taillon....but we have our own young pitching that needs opportunity.  We have no offensive prospects.

 

 

2 years from now....you won't be able to get Josh Bell.


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#7 BSLRobShields

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:21 AM

I like it...but we all knew that wasn't happening.

 

But, I hope this means that they are looking at this possibility.

 

Like dude, I would target the Pirates and try to get a package with Sanchez in it and then you can deal Wieters for the pitching you want.


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#8 JeffLong

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:28 AM

People on facebook commenting on the MLBTR link:

 

its laughable if anything

Good. Hardy isn't worth Miller. Lynn and a lesser prospect maybe. Not Miller. Lynn would still be a good option for a team like Baltimore.

Maybe Lynn and Ramsey/Piscotty for Hardy.


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#9 JeremyStrain

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:40 AM

People on facebook commenting on the MLBTR link:

 

You lost me at "commenting".


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#10 Mackus

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:41 AM

Love that they are exploring this.  I hope that if they can reach a fair deal with another team, that Angelos doesn't squash it because he doesn't want to break up the core.



#11 dude

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:44 AM

..... then you can deal Wieters for the pitching you want.

 

I guess I understand "I want pitching"....because...well....."I want pitching".....but are you really going to add someone you want to give opportunity to over the guys we have.

 

Bundy, Gausman and ERod are all fairly well ranked pitching prospects.

 

Is adding Shelby Miller or James Taillon (neither happening) a good thing?  Sure. ....but does it move the needle for what the Orioles need to do to build a winning organization?

 

Orioles have 4 guys (CT, MG, WC, BN) controlled for 2-4 years and you have 3 higher-end guy at AA/AAA (DB, KG, ER).

 

I'm all for adding more pitching, but I don't know why we'd burn our good trade chips going after things that aren't markedly better than the things we have.



#12 Mackus

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:45 AM

If we have 5 good starting pitching prospects, hell, 2-3 great ones and then two good ones, we'll be lucky to end up with 2 solid SP

 

You can't fill one or two open rotation spots with just one or two elite prospects.  You're setting yourself up for failure.  Or at least you are in Baltimore.

 

Not saying we should definitely target pitching in return for Wieters or anybody, but we don't have enough pitching right now.  The prospects are meaningless until they've proven themselves.



#13 BSLRobShields

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:46 AM

I guess I understand "I want pitching"....because...well....."I want pitching".....but are you really going to add someone you want to give opportunity to over the guys we have.

 

Bundy, Gausman and ERod are all fairly well ranked pitching prospects.

 

Is adding Shelby Miller or James Taillon (neither happening) a good thing?  Sure. ....but does it move the needle for what the Orioles need to do to build a winning organization?

 

Orioles have 4 guys (CT, MG, WC, BN) controlled for 2-4 years and you have 3 higher-end guy at AA/AAA (DB, KG, ER).

 

I'm all for adding more pitching, but I don't know why we'd burn our good trade chips going after things that aren't markedly better than the things we have.

It gets us a lot closer than ERod, Wright and others.

 

The pitching you talked about isn't all that great.

 

I am all for adding the best players they can.

 

My point was that if you have a catcher to replace Wieters, it makes it easier to deal Wieters and the Orioles would be looking for pitching in return.


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#14 JeffLong

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:49 AM

Young pitching like Bundy, Gausman, Taillon/Miller is exactly what good teams who don't spend in FA use to get to the playoffs. See Rays, Tampa Bay or Athletics, Oakland.


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#15 JeremyStrain

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:51 AM

I think what some people still haven't really gotten used to is that without getting some cheap, young top level starting pitching either through the draft or through trades, you are never really going to compete without a $130m payroll.

 

This team can't and won't go sign multiple A. Sanchez type starters ($15m each). So without a ton of good SP prospects you aren't going to hit, they are just too far between. That's why you target all the high level prospects you can find. Of course, without the proper development people, it's going to be an uphill battle, but I think they are on the right track with their recent hires.


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#16 BSLRobShields

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:56 AM

I think what some people still haven't really gotten used to is that without getting some cheap, young top level starting pitching either through the draft or through trades, you are never really going to compete without a $130m payroll.

 

This team can't and won't go sign multiple A. Sanchez type starters ($15m each). So without a ton of good SP prospects you aren't going to hit, they are just too far between. That's why you target all the high level prospects you can find. Of course, without the proper development people, it's going to be an uphill battle, but I think they are on the right track with their recent hires.

That's why we need to trade for these guys and take them from other organizations that develop well. 


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#17 Matt_P

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 11:19 AM

I think what some people still haven't really gotten used to is that without getting some cheap, young top level starting pitching either through the draft or through trades, you are never really going to compete without a $130m payroll.

 

If you can have five top prospects that play any position you want would you rather have them be starting pitchers or position players?  

 

Historically the argument has been that you'd rather have the position player because the pitching prospect is so much more likely to bust and become worthless.



#18 JeremyStrain

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 11:24 AM

If you can have five top prospects that play any position you want would you rather have them be starting pitchers or position players?  

 

Historically the argument has been that you'd rather have the position player because the pitching prospect is so much more likely to bust and become worthless.

 

You need to try to balance, because SP are so much more impactful if they pan out. Manny is a stud, and he's great to have, but having a David Price or Verlander or Kershaw would impact more games directly.

 

It takes more SP to hit on one, but they are worth it. Hit on two of them and you can almost be a contender with a mediocre offense. We had one of the top offenses in the game and missed the playoffs because we didn't have enough pitching.


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#19 BSLMichaelWeber

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 11:27 AM

Well at least this may mean I don't have to hear Rob constantly talk about how the O's would never consider a move like this on the radio show.  :lol:

 

I agree that it's nice to see the O's attempt to make a move like this. The main downside is that if they don't deal Hardy, he'll possibly be upset by the rumors. 

 

If they do deal him, I'm still not thrilled about the idea of moving Manny off third if that's the plan because I think his D will likely fall off substantially there. 

 

Other than that and creating a hole on the left side of the IF, this type of move would still be fine for the O's in the short-term because the pitcher can provide similar value to JJ, and it would have great long-term upside.


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#20 JeffLong

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 12:04 PM

You need to try to balance, because SP are so much more impactful if they pan out. Manny is a stud, and he's great to have, but having a David Price or Verlander or Kershaw would impact more games directly.

 

It takes more SP to hit on one, but they are worth it. Hit on two of them and you can almost be a contender with a mediocre offense. We had one of the top offenses in the game and missed the playoffs because we didn't have enough pitching.

 

To further expand on this, if position players were always preferable to pitchers you'd see teams loading up on hitters in the MLB draft. a hitter with less talent would be worth as much or more than a pitcher with more because of probability. However, their ability to directly impact a game makes pitchers valuable.

 

The best teams stockpile prospects of all types, but generally teams that compete on limited budgets do so by stockpiling young pitching. The Braves have done this for decades, Oakland too. Tampa Bay is among the best in the game at it.


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